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Gallente-Caldari Relations, Are They Improving?

First post
Author
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#141 - 2014-01-22 23:53:10 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Why would we continue fighting over those systems once the CEWPA restrictions are removed? Our navies would be able to move against homeworld systems instead.

And would it stop there? No, the fighting would continue untill only one faction remained, then it would turn on itself. We would end up fighting in those useless systems anyway.


Why not split the difference? Divide the systems up until you are half-and-half, then call a peace treaty and let it be over with.

It might not satisfy everyone, but it would end the warfare.


Warfare is not a bad thing. We shouldn't be seeking peace just to end conflict, because any peace that comes before all mankind has been Reclaimed for God is hollow and will not last. As evidenced by how easily the previous settlements collapsed 5 years ago.

The war needs a definitive victory, not another pause.


The problem is that war doesn't produce definitive victories. How much more definitive was our victory over the Matari people, and yet after all those centuries of slavery here we are again, at war with them at least in a technical sense. What we have are a lot of dead Amarrians and Matari.

As Pieter mentioned, things could be quite a bit worse now that our warfare technology has advanced. Imagine if total war truly held sway, and even in the best case scenario our Avatars were strafing planets like Pator.

Even after everything, I would not see it on any civilized people. We, as a people, turned away from total war with the Pax Amarria. It has become obvious that the Lord has set before us a challenge different than one we saw before. We've put our faith endlessly into our capacity to kill and conquer, but now that is not a solution. We, as a people, must carry on the Reclaiming even when the easiest and most thuggish options are gone from us.

I believe we can do this. I really do believe our four empires, different as they are, can settle their differences without flying fleets into each others' space. War is a caustic remedy, and too great a dose now could even kill that which it is meant to cure.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#142 - 2014-01-23 00:18:19 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

The problem is that war doesn't produce definitive victories. How much more definitive was our victory over the Matari people, and yet after all those centuries of slavery here we are again, at war with them at least in a technical sense. What we have are a lot of dead Amarrians and Matari.


This time around, we have Vitoc (especially the devastating, euphoric strains of the last two decades) and we have transcranial microcontrollers. There ain't gonna be another Rebellion — ever.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#143 - 2014-01-23 00:22:08 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

The problem is that war doesn't produce definitive victories. How much more definitive was our victory over the Matari people, and yet after all those centuries of slavery here we are again, at war with them at least in a technical sense. What we have are a lot of dead Amarrians and Matari.


This time around, we have Vitoc (especially the devastating, euphoric strains of the last two decades) and we have transcranial microcontrollers. There ain't gonna be another Rebellion — ever.


Yes, yes, Nauplius, Vitoc and all that. Aren't you supposed to be chasing around Ston's order and insulting our honor in his thread rather than here? This is something of a grown-up conversation.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#144 - 2014-01-23 00:29:36 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

The problem is that war doesn't produce definitive victories. How much more definitive was our victory over the Matari people, and yet after all those centuries of slavery here we are again, at war with them at least in a technical sense. What we have are a lot of dead Amarrians and Matari.


This time around, we have Vitoc (especially the devastating, euphoric strains of the last two decades) and we have transcranial microcontrollers. There ain't gonna be another Rebellion — ever.

The use of transcranial microcontrollers as a means of control and subjugation is a horrible perversion of their intent. They are palliative devices to help the victims of stroke, aneurysm and brain injury recover and lead normal, productive lives. Alternatively, they can improve the lives and efforts of otherwise normally gifted individuals. Using them to crush the human spirit and enforce a contract from an unwilling subject is inhumane and cruel.

You in one moment force a TCMC upon the unwilling to enforce your will, and then in another curse Sansha's Nation as monsters for doing the exact same thing. Hypocrites and equivocators.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#145 - 2014-01-23 00:46:52 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:

I'm of two minds on this. I definitely agree that the State's biggest failing under Heth was being bullied into following him as a dictator rather than a leader, but I can't wholly agree to the conflict part. Given that our homeland has long been held by a foreign power and the men and women on that planet who still identified as Caldari were being marginalized and mistreated, I can't say that retaking Caldari Prime was a bad thing, but I cannot agree with reciprocating those very same acts back onto the Gallente population of Caldari Prime or the excesses that came from much of the actions being taken in the name of racism. Defense of the State does not equate to kill the Gallente; the death is an unfortunate side effect of the fact we are often in conflict rather than something that should be pursued as a goal, so as much as I can support some actions that were taken, I can't support all of the actions nor can I support the motivations.


What excesses exactly do you make reference to? The ones written down in the Federal narrative without basis in evidence or the ones propagated by the Federal liberal media? For such a supposed racist who wanted to kill all Gallente as the Federation has sought to portray Tibus Heth did he kill all the Gallente in the State? No, he deported and repatriated them alive and well back to the Federation. Did Tibus Heth fire upon Gallente Prime even though he had every opportunity with CONCORD in disarray and the State Fleet unopposed in Luminaire during the initial invasion? No, he didn't.

That said, the fact remains: Without Tibus Heth forcing the issue to retake the Homeworld we wouldn't even be in a position to have even considered the present settlement, let alone have a temporary solution to the long standing territorial dispute it has posed for over a century.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-01-23 00:47:03 UTC
not to mention their utility in automated decision-making system, control circuitry, biomechanical hybrid computer systems... The legitimate uses for TCMCs far outweigh their abuses.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#147 - 2014-01-23 01:20:29 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Nauplius wrote:

The problem is that war doesn't produce definitive victories. How much more definitive was our victory over the Matari people, and yet after all those centuries of slavery here we are again, at war with them at least in a technical sense. What we have are a lot of dead Amarrians and Matari.


This time around, we have Vitoc (especially the devastating, euphoric strains of the last two decades) and we have transcranial microcontrollers. There ain't gonna be another Rebellion — ever.

It's things like this that make the need for CONCORD all the more pressing. Even with drugs, can you suppress an entire civilization of people and there allies, without losing yours in the process? And, say you do, what happens next? Is that the beginning of eternal peace in the galaxy? No, the Empire turns on itself and breaks into factions, right back to square one. At least CONCORD's chaos is controlled, somewhat.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#148 - 2014-01-23 01:23:29 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


What excesses exactly do you make reference to? The ones written down in the Federal narrative without basis in evidence or the ones propagated by the Federal liberal media? For such a supposed racist who wanted to kill all Gallente as the Federation has sought to portray Tibus Heth did he kill all the Gallente in the State? No, he deported and repatriated them alive and well back to the Federation. Did Tibus Heth fire upon Gallente Prime even though he had every opportunity with CONCORD in disarray and the State Fleet unopposed in Luminaire during the initial invasion? No, he didn't.

That said, the fact remains: Without Tibus Heth forcing the issue to retake the Homeworld we wouldn't even be in a position to have even considered the present settlement, let alone have a temporary solution to the long standing territorial dispute it has posed for over a century.

It's not a secret that once Caldari prime was retaken the Gallente started to be treated little different than what we were rescuing Caldari from and Heth's position in a fair portion of his speeches could be boiled down to "Everything's all the Gallente's fault" and he even threatened to fire a doomsday device at a Gallente population.

Again, I agree that the the liberation of Caldari Prime wasn't necessarily a bad thing, and we have now seen a resolution (in spite of, not because of Heth I might add), but you're fooling yourself if you don't realize that it was also used as a convenient excuse to start open hostilities against the Federation as much as it was about reclaiming our homeworld. The state did its fair share to escalate this conflict.

The rumors that Heth was/is a Dragonaur are not Gallente propaganda (even though I am sure they probably spent plenty of time trying to prove that fact so they could use it as such)
===
Let me also pose a philosophical question for you.
Is the right thing done for the wrong reason still the right thing?
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#149 - 2014-01-23 01:32:25 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

Yes, yes, Nauplius, Vitoc and all that. Aren't you supposed to be chasing around Ston's order and insulting our honor in his thread rather than here? This is something of a grown-up conversation.


I made a grown-up point. The point being that mass population control technologies make possible a totally non-ironic "war to end all war." Sansha has demonstrated as such in his own way. Those who see only an endless cycle of war fail to grasp what has only quite recently become possible.

Slave control in the era just before the Rebellion was done via the electric lash and slaver hounds and collars. The latter are effective but labor intensive and hard to scale over a mass of low value people. The former leave the slave partly free to think impure and rebellious thoughts. But now, huge masses of people can be controlled — totally and cost effectively. This fact may be bemoaned (not by me) but it cannot be dismissed.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#150 - 2014-01-23 01:53:12 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Nauplius wrote:

The problem is that war doesn't produce definitive victories. How much more definitive was our victory over the Matari people, and yet after all those centuries of slavery here we are again, at war with them at least in a technical sense. What we have are a lot of dead Amarrians and Matari.


This time around, we have Vitoc (especially the devastating, euphoric strains of the last two decades) and we have transcranial microcontrollers. There ain't gonna be another Rebellion — ever.

It's things like this that make the need for CONCORD all the more pressing. Even with drugs, can you suppress an entire civilization of people and there allies, without losing yours in the process? And, say you do, what happens next? Is that the beginning of eternal peace in the galaxy? No, the Empire turns on itself and breaks into factions, right back to square one. At least CONCORD's chaos is controlled, somewhat.


I wouldn't worry an awful lot about Nauplius. Most of us aren't entirely sure he's even a real Amarrian, as he's what we might think of as a parody. I'm starting to think this is a sort of capsuleer performance art. If he's actually an Amarrian and is telling the truth, I don't think any of us would mind if he died. At least we'd be able to have discussions about peace and war between the empires without immediately being sidetracked into slavery. That's half the reason I think he's some sort of agent; every single discussion he arrives in turns into a sidetrack about slavery in the most offensive way possible.

In any case, Vitoxin is becoming increasingly rare not just because there's an antidote, but because the Vitoc serum creates a chemical dependency. Junkies don't learn the Word very well, which is the entire point of slavery. Most of the Holders who were relying on it and slave collars ran out of slaves when the emancipation order came through. They had a tendency to breed them quickly and not worry about their education. So most were more than nine generations in and their servants had little incentive to stay.

This is actually the first time I've even heard of using a TCMC, and my reaction is similar to everyone else's. If it's ever used for the purposes of slave control, it's undermining the very reason it is supposed to exist, re-education. If our only goal with slaves is to keep them in check doing manual labor, and not for the eventual goal of release into society, we'd just be the same as jailers in every other corner of the cluster.

Amarrian holders are meant to be better than mere prison wardens.

Back on the subject at hand, it's a bit depressing to know how far Heth's legacy outlives his administration. I can understand the Caldari reluctance to have a single central authority figure after his reign, but in the end I think the Caldari should have a better reputation having overthrown him forcibly once he'd begun to defy the principles of his rule. It certainly took us longer to overthrow a far more vicious tyrant in our history, so the Caldari should be commended for having the presence of mind to do it when they did.

With that said, it might benefit the Gallente and Caldari even more to draw themselves a line through the stars and call a border a border, though the caveat is that there now needs to be a way for the Gallente and Caldari to co-exist on worlds they co-inhabit. The settlement on Caldari Prime is a fairly good way forward, I think. At least the Gallente and Caldari seem to be trying to disentangle themselves from the mess that the war made to their relations.

There's really no one winning in the warfare besides military corporations. At best, its made most of the CEWPA warzones economic deserts whose economies are literally carried on the import of missiles and scout drones. At worst, its hampering both sides' ability to cross-market goods and services. As much hatred as there is, I almost thought the sheer economic weight of it all would have been a good reason to stop the war effort. As much money as they're making selling bullets, it would pale in comparison to the sort of construction and business interests that would accompany peaceful settlement of the region.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#151 - 2014-01-23 01:58:48 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:

Yes, yes, Nauplius, Vitoc and all that. Aren't you supposed to be chasing around Ston's order and insulting our honor in his thread rather than here? This is something of a grown-up conversation.


I made a grown-up point. The point being that mass population control technologies make possible a totally non-ironic "war to end all war." Sansha has demonstrated as such in his own way. Those who see only an endless cycle of war fail to grasp what has only quite recently become possible.

Slave control in the era just before the Rebellion was done via the electric lash and slaver hounds and collars. The latter are effective but labor intensive and hard to scale over a mass of low value people. The former leave the slave partly free to think impure and rebellious thoughts. But now, huge masses of people can be controlled — totally and cost effectively. This fact may be bemoaned (not by me) but it cannot be dismissed.


It can absolutely be dismissed. God did not put us in our position so that we could take the easy way out of our problems. He put us here to learn, and we will eventually learn to stop killing each other or die trying.

Sansha didn't understand that point. You don't make someone a better person by taking away the things about them you don't like. You make them better by teaching them to overcome their weaknesses. Our inability to reason and thus our constant desire to come to blows is a weakness we've far too long let fester. All the advanced living of capsuleers, all the talk of immortality, godhood, and evolution, and we're still effectively acting like very advanced cavemen with very advanced sticks and rocks.

Sansha was wrong. We can overcome these things and be better having done so. An army of mindless drones isn't making us into a pure people. It would be making us into toasters.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#152 - 2014-01-23 02:01:52 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
I made a grown-up point. The point being that mass population control technologies make possible a totally non-ironic "war to end all war." Sansha has demonstrated as such in his own way. Those who see only an endless cycle of war fail to grasp what has only quite recently become possible.


I heard that True Slave Foundations is hiring. You should send them an application.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#153 - 2014-01-23 03:56:56 UTC
The Theology Council declined to outlaw TCMCs for slave control years ago. They remain legal for that purpose:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/theology-council-declines-to-hear-transcranial-microcontroller-debate/
Erin Savonarola
Doomheim
#154 - 2014-01-23 04:28:11 UTC
I owned a Valklear at one time. I had him fitted with a TCMC and used the vitoc method. He was a wonderful conversation piece, but I never felt completely safe around him and sold him.
Sometimes extreme measures are necessary.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#155 - 2014-01-23 04:50:09 UTC
In answer to the original question posed in this thread... It's subjective. I would say they have slightly improved, but more due to the reality of constant warfare sliding into the category "everyday background noise", down from "main event", than any real thaw in relations between the Federation and State at large. In short, it's starting to matter less to individuals than it does to the governments why the fighting is taking place. Those who fight, fight. Those who don't, don't. Generally, neither cares to justify themselves to the other anymore.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Hamish Grayson
#156 - 2014-01-23 07:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamish Grayson
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
[quote=Makoto Priano]
If you believe such a shameful display of capitulation before jaiiji is acceptable and carries with it no burden of dishonour then perhaps the corporate culture of Ishukone has changed drastically from the days of honoured Gariushi-haan who at least understood the concept of compromise with strength - not weakness.


Reppola-haan is no comparison. Nobody argues that fact. We'd all love to have back our dear Otro Gariushi-haan, just as you regained your dear Oiritsuu-haani, but we cannot. Nonetheless, he stood for something that we have refused to allow to die with him. Among other things, he stood for peace between the Federation and State. It was Heth who used our grief and rage to start a war, and Reppola has done his best to follow Gariushi's example and stay the hell out of it.

We follow our CEO just as loyally as we are expected to. We follow his policies, we back his decisions, and we will continue to do so until such time as he is no longer the CEO of Ishukone Okusaika. You are welcome to speak your criticisms of him, just as we did of your former CEO Tibus Heth.

Speaking of Heth... you weren't terribly keen on his policies either, were you? Well then perhaps you can understand why we grit our teeth and continue on, despite not totally agreeing with everything the management does.



It reflects poorly upon my character to speak ill of the dead, especially a former member of the Chief Executive Panel but I feel that to elevate Otro Gariushi to the level of esteem that you hold him suuolo is to do yourself a great disservice. A cursory datamine on Gariushi's history reveals a man who was most certainly not driven by humanitarian ideals.

The man's advocacy for peace cannot be attributed to that; instead we most look at the precarious position of Ishukone near the time of his death. He had, as he'd done several times in the past, lead Ishukone to the edge of bankruptcy and weakened their position within the Executive Panel. War with the Federation would have damaged both their balance-sheet and their political clout even further.

In addition to frequently bringing Ishukone near to ruination, on several occasions Otro Gariushi gave a way vital technological secrets to the Federation in hopes that it would increase Ishukone's sales on related products. This resulted in far reaching and long lasting affects on the State's strategic and economic position in return for very minor and temporary bumps in Ishukone profits. I would argue that if he had not given them these weapons, we'd not be in a state of war right now and indeed may have never faced the economic crisis that lead to the rise of Tibius Heth.

I cannot find fault with a CEO who takes ruthless and practical actions to increase the power and prestige of his or her corporation. It is the duty of an executive to take the hardline when required, to make the difficult moral choices and if need be to sacrifice his or her own honor and integrity for the good of the company. However, while Gariushi's can be described as ruthless and at times merciless...given the results of his choices I cannot see him an as especially practical or wise leader nor would would I define him as a competent financial manager.

Reppola-haan is a significantly superior Chief Executive as evidenced by Ishukone finally achieving stable financial growth. I suspect that if the events of Malkalen had not changed the course of Ishukone we'd either have only seven members of the CEP today or else his peers on Panel or his own directors would have invited Gariushi to tea and found a replacement.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#157 - 2014-01-23 08:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Xindi Kraid wrote:

It's not a secret that once Caldari prime was retaken the Gallente started to be treated little different than what we were rescuing Caldari from and Heth's position in a fair portion of his speeches could be boiled down to "Everything's all the Gallente's fault" and he even threatened to fire a doomsday device at a Gallente population.

Again, I agree that the the liberation of Caldari Prime wasn't necessarily a bad thing, and we have now seen a resolution (in spite of, not because of Heth I might add), but you're fooling yourself if you don't realize that it was also used as a convenient excuse to start open hostilities against the Federation as much as it was about reclaiming our homeworld. The state did its fair share to escalate this conflict.

The rumors that Heth was/is a Dragonaur are not Gallente propaganda (even though I am sure they probably spent plenty of time trying to prove that fact so they could use it as such)
===
Let me also pose a philosophical question for you.
Is the right thing done for the wrong reason still the right thing?


Firstly, a century of negotiation and overture regarding the Homeworld accomplished nothing in respect to forging a solution to the most important territorial dispute that has faced the State since its inception. At times where diplomacy fails, then force is the only option, and without the resort to force that Tibus Heth instigated then we would still remain at the previous impasse of a century and not, as I said, with a temporary solution at the least at present. In retrospect, indeed, it would appear that in part it was an act of political opportunism by the former Executor but only because we have the luxury of hindsight to compare then and now . It does not in any way in my mind renege the appropriateness of the limited invasion into the Federation to seize through force of arms what the Federation sought to deny the Caldari people by historical and cultural rights: the blood and soil of our ancestors.

As for your question, I will respond with the following:

The ends will always justify the means used to attain them.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#158 - 2014-01-23 09:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Grayson-haan... With all due respect, I think you need to re-examine recent history. Ishukone's departure from a stable growth trajectory coincided with the Malkalen incident, and its return has coincided with the Intaki and Caldari Prime agreements and the dissolution of the CPD. Prior to the FNS Wandering Saint's suicide-ram, Ishukone stock was trading at a 20 year high and the corporation had posted steady profits every quarter since the eviction of Les Akkilen in YC100.

The esteemed Otro Gariushi-haan was nothing but a good thing for Ishukone both fiscally and culturally. Reppola-haan has likewise demonstrated his competence as CEO, with his own leadership style. I refuse to commit to a stance on whether I would prefer to have Gariushi-haan back - that is impossible, and an insult to Reppola-haan, whom I respect. There's a middle ground available, where we can cheer on the new chief while honouring the old.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#159 - 2014-01-23 10:07:29 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
not to mention their utility in automated decision-making system, control circuitry, biomechanical hybrid computer systems... The legitimate uses for TCMCs far outweigh their abuses.


This is true, they are even a required component for the so called Ascendancy implants, and by inference may be attributed as a component in many implants of similar nature. Just as a gun can be turned from the purpose of securing one's home from predators and hunting on backwater colony worlds, so can the TCMC be turned from a tool and palliative into a device of mass tailored subjugation.

The point that many who espouse the use of TCMCs also curse sansha in the same breath highlights the hypocrisy at the heart of their use as a control mechanism. It may be considered outwardly humane to curtail an individuals resistance to subjugation, in that it reduces the need for other more painful methods of enforcement, but the fact that it replaces the lash and the collar does not make it any less of a violation.

I refuse to comment on slavery as a whole out of respect for the Empire and its religion, but some methods go too far in my humble opinion. I am sure there are those who have the patience and humanity to conduct the reclaiming in their personal domains in a manner more reflective of the oft stated enlightenment and theological uplifting that underpins public discussion of that particular institution. Simply put, how can one be considered to be moving towards Amarrian terms of religious compliance under duress? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding the terms some use to describe 'accepting God'?

I guess that my thoughts can be summed up as a question: When you use drugs or mind controlling technology to control your slaves, how different are you from the Cartel or Sansha respectively? Does a supplicant following an implanted artificial script to voice devotion actually carry your God in their heart and soul?

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#160 - 2014-01-23 10:57:20 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
...dissolution of the CEP.


I must have missed that memo.

Kurilaivonen|Concern