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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Takada Ishikela
Doomheim
#1961 - 2014-01-22 19:31:12 UTC
FU CCP, and **** your ****** broken game, i canceled two 3 year old accounts, Star Citizen here i come.
1Robert McNamara1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1962 - 2014-01-22 19:51:32 UTC
If we really want to drive conflict and encourage small gangs we need something different. Sure, Null-bear ratters could anti up a bit of earnings for greater average payout. And Pirates could make a play to take that anty. The current proposal doesn't accomplish the goal well enough. It's too easy for a single player to make a pass at the earnings, meaning there's no small gang, just a cloaky/nulli thief instead of a small band of pirates. In short, hard set timers are dull and discourage creative play.


Here's an alternate approach:

ESS stats:
30m price tag
HP set to ~150k (resistance holes based on faction used)

ESS is a beacon for empires to monitor activity and reward good behavior.
- That reward comes automatically in 2 hour ticks. (use a cool counter and display the current pot as you like)
- if the ESS is destroyed all payout is now loot in the form of tickets.

The EHP is high enough to require the thief risk something of value. (ships/time etc.)
The ratters could interrupt the thief, remote rep the structure, or take it off line. to redeploy later and receive payout.
The Cost is high enough that ratters don't want to be replacing these all the time, but would need them to stay deployed for at least 2 hours to get their payout.
It engages the PVP timer. This is PVP and should be treated as such.

Notes:
It requires everyone to risk something in order to gain. In all cases smart playing and decent skills are useful at improving chances.

It gives small gangs a reason to go to Sov Null space and harass ratters.
It gives ratters a reason to undock in PVP fleets when reds come.
It is simpler to use and won't require an extensive wiki page to describe.
Numbers help both sides but large raiding fleets will be cumbersome to manage payouts and the risked asset is not so high that defense fleets need to be giant either (no sense risking billions in fleet assets to save millions in ratter income)


Please give us a simpler route to content creation. the current item does not encourage group play and makes ratting in Sov space too much like busy work.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1963 - 2014-01-22 19:52:17 UTC
Takada Ishikela wrote:
FU CCP, and **** your ****** broken game, i canceled two 3 year old accounts, Star Citizen here i come.

if you liked incarna you're sure to like star citizen!

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1964 - 2014-01-22 20:16:38 UTC
Epic thread.

So many tears, you guys better drink some water or you will all become severely dehydrated...

The Tears Must Flow

RDevz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1965 - 2014-01-22 20:23:24 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
posting here in efforts of getting this thread to 100 pages \o/


Has any idea from CCP (that wasn't Incarna) gotten 100 pages of such overwhelmingly negative feedback before? If so, did it turn out to be a success by the metrics of "customer satisfaction" or "making the game better" when implemented?

If not, why is no-one paying heed to the definition of insanity which is doing the same thing time and time again and expecting different results?

~

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1966 - 2014-01-22 20:48:23 UTC
RDevz wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
posting here in efforts of getting this thread to 100 pages \o/


Has any idea from CCP (that wasn't Incarna) gotten 100 pages of such overwhelmingly negative feedback before? If so, did it turn out to be a success by the metrics of "customer satisfaction" or "making the game better" when implemented?

If not, why is no-one paying heed to the definition of insanity which is doing the same thing time and time again and expecting different results?

Fortunately, most of the negative feedback isn't actually negative feedback, it's kneejerk reaction posting and "me too" posting and can be safely ignored. Most of the posts in this thread follow a format so rigidly that you could probably write a single regular expression* to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you've kept up with the thread you will notice that the actual feedback that wasn't a 3-5 paragraph thesis statement of the poster's inability to handle risk or think critically was actually considered and about half of that feedback was actually implemented.

* hurrr /GBS Logistics and Fives Support/ is a funny answer

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1967 - 2014-01-22 20:56:33 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
You know there's a pretty huge issue when

Goonswarm Federation
Mordus Angels
Fatal Ascension
Razor Alliance
Li3 Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Space Monkey's Alliance
Pandemic Legion
Black Legion
Nulli Secunda
Against All Authorities
Darkness of Despair
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
The Initiative.
Brothers of Tangra
Fidelas Constans
Gentleman's Agreement
Solar Fleet
Circle of Two
The Kadeshi
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Spaceship Samurai
Executive Outcomes


all have managed to agree that the new ESS deployable is really ******* stupid.


RIOT, COUNT ME IN!

All accounts unsubbed. Minmatar artillery locked, loaded and ready to shoot the statue. #YOLO #420BLAZE_IT
Turelus
Utassi Security
#1968 - 2014-01-22 21:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Turelus
I can't unsub in protest, I paid for a years sub a week before this was announced... somehow CCP knew. P

I wouldn't say this is worth cancelling subs over but I think it's getting near the old ways of CCP not really understanding what its player base wants. Hopefully the ESS will continue to be work on after release but I honestly do see this as another Rapid Missile case where people say "It wont work" and CCP say "Nah it's fine" then after a month and the initial rage/indifference no one uses it and it sits in the game doing nothing.

I love the LP options it brings, I think more work to add the LP stores and new upgrades to NullSec are great, but the whole gambling of ISK and 5% reduction under this supposed need to reduce ISK from NullSec is just meh.

Also I think it's like three more posts until 100 pages now? Make 100 something shiny, colours and lights!

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
#1969 - 2014-01-22 21:09:04 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
posting here in efforts of getting this thread to 100 pages \o/


Yes, lets put more oil on the raging fire by 1. ignoring customers comments and 2. making fun of the threadnaught they createSad.

GG, I wonder what your marketing manager thinks about comments like these.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#1970 - 2014-01-22 21:14:56 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.


Much better indeed, but still not efficient as a potential harassment tool and it still feels and sounds forced being that it's a 0.0 tweak without a deeper rework of the system.

The reasons it's not efficient as a small gangs objective:

  • Day to day 0.0 is hardly if at all worth defending against anything that doesn't threaten the sov level
  • Ratters don't man up to defend a system when a system is roamed in, they're there to rat, not risk pvp assets
  • With no RF timer, no attack notification and low HP on the thing, the best you'll achieve with this is the same as if you were AFK cloaking: everyone stops ratting until offenders go away.
  • If the ratters themselves have deployed an ESS, they can hit the Share All option from an alt at the structure when they see a neutral come in - there will rarely be something to steal


Though I don't think there are concrete ways to positively change this though without a complete overhaul of 0.0 and sovspace particularly :(

No sig.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1971 - 2014-01-22 21:18:59 UTC

Frankly, I don't believe people will unsub over the deployment of the ESS.

Several alliance leaders have already stated they are reconsidering the utilization of the ESS given their enhanced payouts. The ESS has a lot of good design inherent within it, although there are still some unanswered questions.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1972 - 2014-01-22 21:23:36 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.


Much better indeed, but still not efficient as a potential harassment tool and it still feels and sounds forced being that it's a 0.0 tweak without a deeper rework of the system.

The reasons it's not efficient as a small gangs objective:

  • Day to day 0.0 is hardly if at all worth defending against anything that doesn't threaten the sov level
  • Ratters don't man up to defend a system when a system is roamed in, they're there to rat, not risk pvp assets
  • With no RF timer, no attack notification and low HP on the thing, the best you'll achieve with this is the same as if you were AFK cloaking: everyone stops ratting until offenders go away.
  • If the ratters themselves have deployed an ESS, they can hit the Share All option from an alt at the structure when they see a neutral come in - there will rarely be something to steal


Though I don't think there are concrete ways to positively change this though without a complete overhaul of 0.0 and sovspace particularly :(


It isn't designed for the small gang to deploy. It is designed for the RATTER to deploy. Deploying it though has the inherent risk that a small gang might come mess with it and snag the "bonus payout" it gives for themselves.

Your final point: that a ratter's alt can hit the share-all button before any small gang can hinder that is the foremost issue with its current design! A 20 second access time isn't enough time for a cruiser to warp to it and inhibit that noobship alt from hitting "share all", which is a BIG PROBLEM that must be addressed!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1973 - 2014-01-22 21:41:07 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


An actual good start. The most obvious question is "LP from who"? CONCORD is the most obvious answer, if so prepare you self for HUGE cries of foul from the only other people who get CONCORD LP (Incursion Runners). You should fluff up the CONCORD LP store with some more stuff if you're gonna do this.

If not CONCORD, then who?


Sorry for not mentioning this above. The LP is from the empire navies, so it's based on what ESS was deployed.


So now you **** over every empire mission runner?
Wow. you are some piece of work.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1974 - 2014-01-22 21:41:58 UTC
if i were trying to take from the ESS and i was a negative... i would just do share all as it would ensure i get some ISK and it only takes 20 seconds.

perhaps it should be standings based... if you have negative standings then you can only take all and not have the option to share

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Mackenzie Hawkwood
Event Horizon Expeditionaries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1975 - 2014-01-22 21:42:06 UTC
RDevz wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
posting here in efforts of getting this thread to 100 pages \o/


Has any idea from CCP (that wasn't Incarna) gotten 100 pages of such overwhelmingly negative feedback before? If so, did it turn out to be a success by the metrics of "customer satisfaction" or "making the game better" when implemented?

If not, why is no-one paying heed to the definition of insanity which is doing the same thing time and time again and expecting different results?



There were serveral threads for the derpified Inventory fail release, which went from ignoring the SISI feedback to the numerous locked duplicates on GD to the 'We dev's know what we are doing and you players don't' to 'we will release patches until its right' ie returning the original fuctionality.

The nausea inducing jump tunnel has a 80+ thread which the dev's have stated that 'to add a off button is a cop out' , people are still waiting a proper response to that issue, while an other background graphic's problem was fixed in 2 days.


It seems to be a common thread in these which a Dev cant see past their hubris and just accept that change for the sake of change isn't a good thing, CCP need to ask Microsoft about the take up rate of Windows 8.

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that. - Kina Ayami

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1976 - 2014-01-22 21:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.


Much better indeed, but still not efficient as a potential harassment tool and it still feels and sounds forced being that it's a 0.0 tweak without a deeper rework of the system.

The reasons it's not efficient as a small gangs objective:

  • Day to day 0.0 is hardly if at all worth defending against anything that doesn't threaten the sov level
  • Ratters don't man up to defend a system when a system is roamed in, they're there to rat, not risk pvp assets
  • With no RF timer, no attack notification and low HP on the thing, the best you'll achieve with this is the same as if you were AFK cloaking: everyone stops ratting until offenders go away.
  • If the ratters themselves have deployed an ESS, they can hit the Share All option from an alt at the structure when they see a neutral come in - there will rarely be something to steal


Though I don't think there are concrete ways to positively change this though without a complete overhaul of 0.0 and sovspace particularly :(

It's intended to be deployed by ratters, not hostiles. The last point is fixed by the timer they added: they're tackled for 20 seconds if they hit share all, and I think they have to live that long. Plus any account is better off ratting making money instead of sitting on the ESS.

MeBiatch wrote:
if i were trying to take from the ESS and i was a negative... i would just do share all as it would ensure i get some ISK and it only takes 20 seconds.

perhaps it should be standings based... if you have negative standings then you can only take all and not have the option to share


You'd have contributed nothing so you'd get nothing. Share all gives everyone what they contributed, not an equal share of the pot.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1977 - 2014-01-22 21:51:55 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

So now you **** over every empire mission runner?
Wow. you are some piece of work.

I think it's great CCP listened to our ideas and implemented the LP bonus. It was a great idea and dramatically improves the ESS, and offers a good way for CCP to bring the reward up in 0.0 where it needs to be in the future without worrying about isk inflation.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1978 - 2014-01-22 21:52:27 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

You'd have contributed nothing so you'd get nothing. Share all gives everyone what they contributed, not an equal share of the pot.



well that would make a heck lot more sense then...

i figured it just shared with everyone in space... though upon reflection that was rather dumb of me.

cheers!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#1979 - 2014-01-22 21:55:56 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

So now you **** over every empire mission runner?
Wow. you are some piece of work.

Not really, it's just more competition on the production side of lp markets.

Consider what would happen if a portion of renters and nullbears moved to hisec after a null nerf. Yep, more people running missions/incursions = more competition in lp markets. Same result as before.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1980 - 2014-01-22 22:03:42 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


An actual good start. The most obvious question is "LP from who"? CONCORD is the most obvious answer, if so prepare you self for HUGE cries of foul from the only other people who get CONCORD LP (Incursion Runners). You should fluff up the CONCORD LP store with some more stuff if you're gonna do this.

If not CONCORD, then who?


Sorry for not mentioning this above. The LP is from the empire navies, so it's based on what ESS was deployed.


So now you **** over every empire mission runner?
Wow. you are some piece of work.


If anything, this is more of a direct competition with Faction Warfare, being that it is only empire navy LP. And honestly, FW is already a bit on the 'too good' side.