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Mining less profitable then anything else?

Author
Marsan
#41 - 2014-01-21 19:45:29 UTC
Kaelina Timiar wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
[quote=Batelle][quote=Bugsy VanHalen]
We should have both ore anomalies, and ore signatures, just like combat pilots have both combat anomalies, and combat signatures. I am not asking for these changes to be reverted, just add random ore signatures back into the game. If the nullbears are happy with their hidden belts now being anomalies rather than signatures, then fine, leave them that way, but give us freelancers back the random ORE signatures that the gravametric sites once were. there are more freelancers out there than you think, but most of them are antisocial, and do not bother with the forums.


I don't understand. From what I see, they did not remove ore anomalies, but renamed them to ore signatures and made it so you do not need to scan it down. In sov space, you get your ore signatures from your indy upgrades, but you can still get the random ore signatures which was previously know as ore anomalies such as small arkonor, bistot, crokite site.



His issue is that before he could sit in an anomaly, watch local, and warp clear before someone could find him. Many folks depended on being able to dscan looking for probes for safety. In wspace it's even more dangerous now as you don't have local....

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Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#42 - 2014-01-21 20:42:33 UTC
A good advantage miners have over other pilots is that they can choose to build from their minerals instead of put them on the market. If the player is willing to mine, refine, manufacture, and sell products they will see more isk than someone who mines and dumps ore on the market.
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#43 - 2014-01-22 07:32:55 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
A good advantage miners have over other pilots is that they can choose to build from their minerals instead of put them on the market. If the player is willing to mine, refine, manufacture, and sell products they will see more isk than someone who mines and dumps ore on the market.


That's an inane assertion. It only makes sense to add value to mined minerals if it makes sense to buy them at what you would have sold them for and add value to mined minerals.

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Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#44 - 2014-01-22 10:46:02 UTC
SJ Astralana wrote:
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
A good advantage miners have over other pilots is that they can choose to build from their minerals instead of put them on the market. If the player is willing to mine, refine, manufacture, and sell products they will see more isk than someone who mines and dumps ore on the market.


That's an inane assertion. It only makes sense to add value to mined minerals if it makes sense to buy them at what you would have sold them for and add value to mined minerals.

Not really. I mine regularly to build capital stuff and it makes much more sense for me to mine it and build than to work the markets due to the volume. For nullsec, you have to worry about shipping costs as well. People also seem to forget about taxes and brokers fees, these can significantly cut into profits with tight margins between buy and sell orders. I find myself often buying trit off of the straight market instead of putting up buy orders for this reason. Same concept with sell orders. Plus, if you mine minerals to manufacture items you don't have to deal with the ups and downs of the market price until you make the final product. Of course this could mean a loss on your product but you run into that anyway with buying minerals.

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SJ Astralana
Syncore
#45 - 2014-01-22 12:16:42 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
SJ Astralana wrote:
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
A good advantage miners have over other pilots is that they can choose to build from their minerals instead of put them on the market. If the player is willing to mine, refine, manufacture, and sell products they will see more isk than someone who mines and dumps ore on the market.


That's an inane assertion. It only makes sense to add value to mined minerals if it makes sense to buy them at what you would have sold them for and add value to mined minerals.

Not really. I mine regularly to build capital stuff and it makes much more sense for me to mine it and build than to work the markets due to the volume. For nullsec, you have to worry about shipping costs as well. People also seem to forget about taxes and brokers fees, these can significantly cut into profits with tight margins between buy and sell orders. I find myself often buying trit off of the straight market instead of putting up buy orders for this reason. Same concept with sell orders. Plus, if you mine minerals to manufacture items you don't have to deal with the ups and downs of the market price until you make the final product. Of course this could mean a loss on your product but you run into that anyway with buying minerals.


Deep space has its own set of problems which skew economics, so I'll only address high-sec.

I sell the equivalent of a super carrier per week so I think I know a thing or two about haulage (2 mil per half bil), scale, and broker fees -- in my case precisely .5037% in the specific case of buy orders. Mineral markets are incredibly efficient, and any time buy can be sold for a profit, it goes instantly. There are never, and I mean never, minerals in the quantity I need at below half a percent spread on market. The gaps on other materials are much much higher, and quantities much much lower.

As for sell orders, that's a ridiculous proposition, as the spreads are high enough that you're selling -- at best -- at break even. Again, markets are incredibly efficient.

The bottom line is you're mining at an isk/hr that matches what you could have sold them for, and then you're producing at your value add isk/hr, with time delays built in to convert the time spent into cash. Any rationalising around the edges doesn't change that blunt fact.

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Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#46 - 2014-01-22 13:53:54 UTC
OK, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say honestly. I think you are trying to tell the OP "sell your minerals to make the most isk." Manufacturing is going to depend on volumes of course but for a one/two man miner op, that's not necessarily the case. But you seem to be pretty sure of yourself, so OK.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#47 - 2014-01-22 15:22:03 UTC
The reason mining isn't the most profitable profession, is miners routinely work themselves into Poverty!!!!!

Ratting gives you isk (a currency). While the true value of the currency changes with inflation, it is more tempered than say, minerals, because almost all transactions in EvE utilize it. It is the universal medium to trade.

Mining gives you minerals. The value of minerals is heavily based on the supply and demand of minerals. More miners mining mean the supply continually increases, and unless you have a demand to consume them, you will mine yourselves into poverty. The two ways to truly improve mining as an income stream is to increase demand (i.e. Big wars and massive ship losses are good for this) or to decrease supply (hulkageddon, interdictions, etc).
Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#48 - 2014-01-22 15:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The reason mining isn't the most profitable profession, is miners routinely work themselves into Poverty!!!!!

Ratting gives you isk (a currency). While the true value of the currency changes with inflation, it is more tempered than say, minerals, because almost all transactions in EvE utilize it. It is the universal medium to trade.

Mining gives you minerals. The value of minerals is heavily based on the supply and demand of minerals. More miners mining mean the supply continually increases, and unless you have a demand to consume them, you will mine yourselves into poverty. The two ways to truly improve mining as an income stream is to increase demand (i.e. Big wars and massive ship losses are good for this) or to decrease supply (hulkageddon, interdictions, etc).

What is amazing to me is the lack of price increase for minerals after the loss of drone goo, T1 mods from missions, and the mining barge changes. The prices have dropped pretty steadily over the past year when I thought they would increase or at least minimize. For instance, Zydrine was sooo easy to get in drone regions but the price never rebounded after that. Then after adding anomolies to scanners, still nothing. High sec ganks really picked up in the past few years as well. While hulkageddon really never had a serious effect on prices, it did have some.

I wish I could see numbers showing the amount of ISboxers mining. I seriously think that is what is killing the market. A few years ago there were a few but now it seems every other nullsec mining system you go into has one with at least 7 accounts going. Of course this is anecdotal but I think that this might be the "mining themselves into poverty" more than anything else.

Maybe this plus the mining barge changes being too good overall? /shrug

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#49 - 2014-01-22 18:19:39 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The reason mining isn't the most profitable profession, is miners routinely work themselves into Poverty!!!!!

Ratting gives you isk (a currency). While the true value of the currency changes with inflation, it is more tempered than say, minerals, because almost all transactions in EvE utilize it. It is the universal medium to trade.

Mining gives you minerals. The value of minerals is heavily based on the supply and demand of minerals. More miners mining mean the supply continually increases, and unless you have a demand to consume them, you will mine yourselves into poverty. The two ways to truly improve mining as an income stream is to increase demand (i.e. Big wars and massive ship losses are good for this) or to decrease supply (hulkageddon, interdictions, etc).

What is amazing to me is the lack of price increase for minerals after the loss of drone goo, T1 mods from missions, and the mining barge changes. The prices have dropped pretty steadily over the past year when I thought they would increase or at least minimize. For instance, Zydrine was sooo easy to get in drone regions but the price never rebounded after that. Then after adding anomolies to scanners, still nothing. High sec ganks really picked up in the past few years as well. While hulkageddon really never had a serious effect on prices, it did have some.

I wish I could see numbers showing the amount of ISboxers mining. I seriously think that is what is killing the market. A few years ago there were a few but now it seems every other nullsec mining system you go into has one with at least 7 accounts going. Of course this is anecdotal but I think that this might be the "mining themselves into poverty" more than anything else.

Maybe this plus the mining barge changes being too good overall? /shrug


Botters, Multiboxers, and even the all-day players afk mining at work all play a role in creating large stockpiles of minerals. I don't know if they are the ones really at fault though, they are just the easy targets for Ire. The truth is, there are many, many, many miners in this game. To give you an idea, look through the QEN's (even if they are old).
Q4, 2010: Hulk #1 flown ship (2.5% of the populace, 19,046 ships), Retriever #10 most flown ship (1%, 7,514).
Q3, 2010: Hulk #1, retriever #6
Q2, 2010: Hulk #2, Retriever #6
Q1, 2010: Hulk #1, Retriever #5
Q4, 2009: Hulk #2, Retriever #6
Q3, 2009: Hulk #1, Retriever #5
Q2, 2009: Hulk #1, Retriever #5

In general, about 5+% of EvE's populace flies Mining Barges and Exhumers. Also regularly appearing on the list is the large number of Drakes (#2 or #1), Tengu's, Ravens, and Domis, which at that time, were very much PvE ships! This second point is important, because PvE ships have a much longer lifetime than PvP ships. And since ship production is one of the largest consumers of minerals, the turnover of ships is extremely important to the value of minerals.

That perfectly skilled hulk the OP is referring too can mine almost 10m Trit in an hour just using veldespar. The Q4, 2010 claimed there were 19k hulks and 7.5k retrievers. I realize that data is 3 years old, but I think we can conservatively estimate 30k barges, each on for 2 hours a day, each mining the equivalent of 5m Trit an hour, is a decent estimation of the miners in game. With that, we have an influx of 300 billion Trit a day. A domi takes ~10m trit to build, but we'll pretend its 25m Trit just because I'm looking at everything in terms of Trit. You would need to destroy 12k Domi's every day balance that influx of Minerals. That's 500 BS's, or 1000 Battlecruisers, or 2500+ cruiser every hour. I'm pretty sure the average rate of ship attrition is below this.

The point, miners historically over-harvest minerals compared to the ship destruction in game. The tiericide of ships over the last two years had a big increase in mineral demand, but since then things have been quieting down. I know people that get their minerals well below market costs because some mining operations simply overproduce minerals to the point they have stockpiles they have difficulty selling. At this point, if miners want their profession to become more "valuable", they need to make mining more difficult (so there are fewer overall miners), or they need demand to rise (i.e. Lots of ship explosions).
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#50 - 2014-01-22 18:26:06 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Anyone crazy enough to mine in low sec or NPC null was dependent on that extra few seconds seeing the probes on D-scan gave them, now mining in those same sites which are now anomalies is suicide.


Pull missions, mine in mission deadspace. Some combat sites have asteroids as well.

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Cymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-01-22 19:04:29 UTC
Risk VS Reward, the running factor in eve. Mining is crap because it's ****-simple to do, a day 1 toon can mine. Almost no risk, therefore almost no reward.

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Kaelina Timiar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-01-22 23:12:46 UTC
Marsan wrote:
Kaelina Timiar wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
[quote=Batelle][quote=Bugsy VanHalen]
We should have both ore anomalies, and ore signatures, just like combat pilots have both combat anomalies, and combat signatures. I am not asking for these changes to be reverted, just add random ore signatures back into the game. If the nullbears are happy with their hidden belts now being anomalies rather than signatures, then fine, leave them that way, but give us freelancers back the random ORE signatures that the gravametric sites once were. there are more freelancers out there than you think, but most of them are antisocial, and do not bother with the forums.


I don't understand. From what I see, they did not remove ore anomalies, but renamed them to ore signatures and made it so you do not need to scan it down. In sov space, you get your ore signatures from your indy upgrades, but you can still get the random ore signatures which was previously know as ore anomalies such as small arkonor, bistot, crokite site.



His issue is that before he could sit in an anomaly, watch local, and warp clear before someone could find him. Many folks depended on being able to dscan looking for probes for safety. In wspace it's even more dangerous now as you don't have local....



Now I get it. Well, I am a nullsec miner (not this character but my main), and I do not have any problems. You can still get out of the belt fairly easily and the only time i'd get caught is if i happened to start warping to the belt as a neut/red jumps in.
flakeys
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-01-23 16:44:25 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
risk vs reward says hi.




Where does that come in when we talk about trade ? Big smile

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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#54 - 2014-01-26 20:24:02 UTC
It's mostly a free market so mining pays whatever the market will bare. If people stopped mining, prices on ore would climb. There are more reasons to mine then just to make money off of ore.. Remember that manufactuerers are looking at the ore prices in a completely different way - hoping they drop some more just as they need to buy and then climb up back after.

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Tarendar
Sparkle Pony Inc
#55 - 2014-01-27 15:52:42 UTC
Reading this thread has makes me wish there were an "Innocuous Ratter01" through "Innocuous Ratter37", who would go blasting through systems, warping six cruisers to every belt at once, killing everything in less than a minute, and then moving on...
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#56 - 2014-02-09 07:18:03 UTC
Tarendar wrote:
Reading this thread has makes me wish there were an "Innocuous Ratter01" through "Innocuous Ratter37", who would go blasting through systems, warping six cruisers to every belt at once, killing everything in less than a minute, and then moving on...


Visit nullsec sometime. Though, in those cases, it's one guy boxing Innocuous Ratter01 through Innocuous Ratter37 in 37 different systems.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#57 - 2014-02-10 19:21:49 UTC
I did not read the entire thread. But there is an error in the spreadsheet. The cubic meters per cycle listed is for a single strip on a Hulk. But a Hulk can mount three strips. So all the numbers are low by a factor of three.
Even in high sec with just 2 Hulks and an Orca I get more per hour than shown on that sheet.

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Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-02-11 09:28:19 UTC
If you want to make isk you do large scale industry jobs or long term corp or super cap scams. Mining is a boring chore and I am more than happy for you to sell your minerals to me so I can move them 3 - 7 systems, push 4 buttons and make 10%+ profit off them 20d later. Best effort to isk ration in the game.
Flashy 'Red' Bee
Doomheim
#59 - 2014-02-12 02:03:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Flashy 'Red' Bee
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
The minerals market has been on a downward spiral since the April announcement that the Null Sec Ores were being tweeked to have more low end mineral (high sec) content.

Not nearly as many minerals like Trit are required from High Sec to fund Null Industry.

I have not bothered even mining the past few months as it's the most historic low for minerals in my 4 years ingame.

It's a long term investment. You mine it now and keep it until prices go up again.
After a while stocks on the market, of everything that's made with minerals, depletes.
All newly built thingy will have a higher price.
It just takes a while to get noticeable on a wider scale.

So you can sell the minerals later, or build stuff now and sell it later for much more money than you would have gotten before. If you're smart enough, you might even find items more profitable, or faster sellable, than others.

What I like about mining is that its income is in relation to the prices of everything that's built out of them.
Dare I say that having a huge reserve on minerals makes you lose less once prices go up and also stay up.
Arcelian
Nam Imperii
#60 - 2014-02-12 02:44:09 UTC
Make mining more difficult. Make it interactive. Somehow, it needs to take a measure of skill to mine most efficiently.

How to do this, I have no idea. But as long as mining is so easy a ******/bot can do it, it will pay less than anything else.