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[Rubicon 1.1] Interceptor Agility Tweak

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Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#161 - 2014-01-21 20:08:26 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
You know what would be bad-ass? If you let inties keep their agility and instead split anchorable and dictor/hic bubbles into different categories, and then gave interceptors immunity to the anchorable variety. It would let inties blow past static defenses, but would leave active interference (gate camps, carefully-positioned and -timed hic/dic drag bubbles, etc) effective against them.

While you're at it, you can apply the same stat to T3 nullifier subsystems.

This is clearly the best idea, since there's no good reason for EVE ships to be categorically immune to other players' active, directed attempts to stop them.


This would be an epic change.


Makes it too easy to run away by dropping bubbles behind you as you flee. Interceptors are supposed to be able to intercept and catch enemy fleets. Loosing 10s every gate to bubbles makes that very hard to do. Maybe if it was only HIC bubbles, with a special script that made them even smaller, but catch nullified ships, you would at least be risking the HIC, rather then the DIC which can bubble and jump endlessly.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#162 - 2014-01-21 22:38:08 UTC
I would be okay with that too.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#163 - 2014-01-22 05:47:01 UTC
Franky Saken wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Agility goes up.

Align time goes up.

Sounds legit.

Someone fail math? Or just plain lack of logic.


Bueller. Bueller.

Ok, I'll give you a hint. Agility reduces align time.

The answer is in the first post, I'll quote it for you but basically they do mass * agility = align_time.

Quote:
Agility (as a modifier on mass) affects the turning time (often measured as align time) of ships. Lower is better.
The align times listed below are for a hypothetical character with 0 skills.


So they fail english.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#164 - 2014-01-22 05:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Xirin wrote:
I'm still not seeing why this change is the least bit necessary.


Because if you can't offer anything useful to improve the game, you ruin things that are already in place in an attempt to remain relevant.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#165 - 2014-01-22 07:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
My 5 cents:
I think CCP absolutely misses the point here. I have flown a lot with the malediction this month and it is a great ship.
But main issue here aren´t intys but intys with links. It was and is still the same problem like it was with kitey condors:
Kiters + Skirmish links = OP.
Interceptors + Skirmish links = completely OP.
Examples:

-The low signature radius of interceptors makes them already very hard to hit with the usual counter called light missiles.
I was soloing a light missile fitted heretic in a malediction without skirmish links and no implants. Okay the guy tried to shot me with furies but if he would have taken usual cal navy ammo I would have probably been forced to run. The light fury missiles almost didn´t hit a male that orbits at 21km with 5.1k m/s.

-There is a well know corp who is almost only flying interceptors with loki and Tengu booster.
Grab 5 Raptors, 2 ogb, every Raptor has sensor damp.... --->unkillable.
I have tried it with fof rapid light caracals. We tried it with 3 fof rapid light caras.... No way. The only outcome were dead caras. They even didn´t need to run. They simply killed us.
Combination of skirmish links + interceptor point range + interceptor speed + interceptor sig radius = almost completely immune to missiles. Yes the missiles did hit. But the damage in combination of speed+ sig radius was a total joke.
You say snipe them with nado from 120km? Also doesn´t hit. We tried it^^. Forget even sentries. Too low sig radius and speed.
Arty Thrasher? Hahaha. 5 fully tech2 fitted 280mm arty thrashers couldn´t kill even one at optimal range^^ (we tried to alpha them before they got damps on us).

So the agility tweak will fix... nothing!
Really CCp you miss again the point. Main issue here is the combination of interceptors and off grid boosters and not the interceptor itself.


edit: I bet I will get flamed to death from people who don´t even know how to undock a shuttle without ogb veeeeeeery fast.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#166 - 2014-01-22 13:46:06 UTC
Warfare links in being hilariously overpowered non-shocker, yeah.
MonkeyMagic Thiesant
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2014-01-22 14:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: MonkeyMagic Thiesant
Michael Harari wrote:

Yeah that extra fifth of a second of align time is really going to mess with your tackling RollRollRoll


It can do - if it takes the align into the next tic. A number (four iirc) of the inties are currently at approx 2.90 seconds align, which means 3 seconds. Give them this slight agility nerf, and they're suddenly rounding up to 4 seconds.

That's a very big difference in terms of their chances of being locked in a gatecamp.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-01-22 14:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
I don't see how nerfing agility will introduce interesting gameplay.


With the warp speed changes introduced the role of the interceptor changed from simply being faster ship on grid to being fastest though warp to get in front of targets to tackle them.

This is an excellent role which should be maintained.

The role of the interceptor is now warp fast and catch stuff a nerf to align time nerfs that ability without introducing significant on grid downsides.

Time through warp from a to b is after all align time + warp time.


I think an increase to mass and compensated change to agility modifier to keep align time the same would be the way to go
either that or a lower max speed.

Slower on grid with mwd than pirate frigs , but still fastest to align-warp to catch up to stuff.



~tldr
Keep fastest through align - warp from grid to grid.
Remove fastest on grid status.
Senarian Tyme
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#169 - 2014-01-22 17:21:38 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
The problem with interceptors is their interdiction nullification, not their agility. Give them their agility back and remove their bubble immunity.


What if instead of outright yanking the bubble immunity, the immunity was was granted due to a module which was optional to fit instead of being part of the hull bonus? The module could be limited to use on just interceptors, and the module itself could contain various penalties to offset the benefit of bubble immunity. (longer lock times, short lock range, longer align time all come to mind as possible candidates.)

This would allow people to tailor the interceptor for best use in their environments while still keeping them in check a bit.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#170 - 2014-01-22 18:49:49 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
My 5 cents:
I think CCP absolutely misses the point here. I have flown a lot with the malediction this month and it is a great ship.
But main issue here aren´t intys but intys with links. It was and is still the same problem like it was with kitey condors:
Kiters + Skirmish links = OP.
Interceptors + Skirmish links = completely OP.
Examples:

-The low signature radius of interceptors makes them already very hard to hit with the usual counter called light missiles.
I was soloing a light missile fitted heretic in a malediction without skirmish links and no implants. Okay the guy tried to shot me with furies but if he would have taken usual cal navy ammo I would have probably been forced to run. The light fury missiles almost didn´t hit a male that orbits at 21km with 5.1k m/s.

-There is a well know corp who is almost only flying interceptors with loki and Tengu booster.
Grab 5 Raptors, 2 ogb, every Raptor has sensor damp.... --->unkillable.
I have tried it with fof rapid light caracals. We tried it with 3 fof rapid light caras.... No way. The only outcome were dead caras. They even didn´t need to run. They simply killed us.
Combination of skirmish links + interceptor point range + interceptor speed + interceptor sig radius = almost completely immune to missiles. Yes the missiles did hit. But the damage in combination of speed+ sig radius was a total joke.
You say snipe them with nado from 120km? Also doesn´t hit. We tried it^^. Forget even sentries. Too low sig radius and speed.
Arty Thrasher? Hahaha. 5 fully tech2 fitted 280mm arty thrashers couldn´t kill even one at optimal range^^ (we tried to alpha them before they got damps on us).

So the agility tweak will fix... nothing!
Really CCp you miss again the point. Main issue here is the combination of interceptors and off grid boosters and not the interceptor itself.


edit: I bet I will get flamed to death from people who don´t even know how to undock a shuttle without ogb veeeeeeery fast.

off grid boosting need to be fixed, period.
ceptors with link only work if you stay in in one system if you want to roam links are a no go because you will lose the main strength of ceptors
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#171 - 2014-01-22 19:24:01 UTC
To mare wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
My 5 cents:
I think CCP absolutely misses the point here. I have flown a lot with the malediction this month and it is a great ship.
But main issue here aren´t intys but intys with links. It was and is still the same problem like it was with kitey condors:
Kiters + Skirmish links = OP.
Interceptors + Skirmish links = completely OP.
Examples:

-The low signature radius of interceptors makes them already very hard to hit with the usual counter called light missiles.
I was soloing a light missile fitted heretic in a malediction without skirmish links and no implants. Okay the guy tried to shot me with furies but if he would have taken usual cal navy ammo I would have probably been forced to run. The light fury missiles almost didn´t hit a male that orbits at 21km with 5.1k m/s.

-There is a well know corp who is almost only flying interceptors with loki and Tengu booster.
Grab 5 Raptors, 2 ogb, every Raptor has sensor damp.... --->unkillable.
I have tried it with fof rapid light caracals. We tried it with 3 fof rapid light caras.... No way. The only outcome were dead caras. They even didn´t need to run. They simply killed us.
Combination of skirmish links + interceptor point range + interceptor speed + interceptor sig radius = almost completely immune to missiles. Yes the missiles did hit. But the damage in combination of speed+ sig radius was a total joke.
You say snipe them with nado from 120km? Also doesn´t hit. We tried it^^. Forget even sentries. Too low sig radius and speed.
Arty Thrasher? Hahaha. 5 fully tech2 fitted 280mm arty thrashers couldn´t kill even one at optimal range^^ (we tried to alpha them before they got damps on us).

So the agility tweak will fix... nothing!
Really CCp you miss again the point. Main issue here is the combination of interceptors and off grid boosters and not the interceptor itself.


edit: I bet I will get flamed to death from people who don´t even know how to undock a shuttle without ogb veeeeeeery fast.

off grid boosting need to be fixed, period.
ceptors with link only work if you stay in in one system if you want to roam links are a no go because you will lose the main strength of ceptors


Why do you think it is always the same: Neutral loki and tengu jump in system and then the ceptors. Always the same...

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#172 - 2014-01-22 22:39:27 UTC
I think the simplest solution to this problem is to remove bubbles and instalock setups. I feel like they give people unreasonable expectations about the efficacy of gate camps.

Also, nerf links.
Morwennon
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#173 - 2014-01-22 22:45:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwennon
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Why do you think it is always the same: Neutral loki and tengu jump in system and then the ceptors. Always the same...

Offgrid boosting is dumb as all hell and needs to go but until that happens, the best solution to this problem is to get an alt with a virtue set in a probing ship and then scan down and kill their link alts.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2014-01-22 23:05:11 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
My 5 cents:
I think CCP absolutely misses the point here. I have flown a lot with the malediction this month and it is a great ship.
But main issue here aren´t intys but intys with links. It was and is still the same problem like it was with kitey condors:
Kiters + Skirmish links = OP.
Interceptors + Skirmish links = completely OP.
Examples:

-The low signature radius of interceptors makes them already very hard to hit with the usual counter called light missiles.
I was soloing a light missile fitted heretic in a malediction without skirmish links and no implants. Okay the guy tried to shot me with furies but if he would have taken usual cal navy ammo I would have probably been forced to run. The light fury missiles almost didn´t hit a male that orbits at 21km with 5.1k m/s.

-There is a well know corp who is almost only flying interceptors with loki and Tengu booster.
Grab 5 Raptors, 2 ogb, every Raptor has sensor damp.... --->unkillable.
I have tried it with fof rapid light caracals. We tried it with 3 fof rapid light caras.... No way. The only outcome were dead caras. They even didn´t need to run. They simply killed us.
Combination of skirmish links + interceptor point range + interceptor speed + interceptor sig radius = almost completely immune to missiles. Yes the missiles did hit. But the damage in combination of speed+ sig radius was a total joke.
You say snipe them with nado from 120km? Also doesn´t hit. We tried it^^. Forget even sentries. Too low sig radius and speed.
Arty Thrasher? Hahaha. 5 fully tech2 fitted 280mm arty thrashers couldn´t kill even one at optimal range^^ (we tried to alpha them before they got damps on us).

So the agility tweak will fix... nothing!
Really CCp you miss again the point. Main issue here is the combination of interceptors and off grid boosters and not the interceptor itself.


edit: I bet I will get flamed to death from people who don´t even know how to undock a shuttle without ogb veeeeeeery fast.


then get you r own tackle with LINKS and your target paitner with information warfare LINKS and stop WHINING!

If they can do it you can do it yourself!

If you are bringign links alonge then you are loosing the WHOLE mobility of interceptors!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#175 - 2014-01-22 23:54:12 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
My 5 cents:
I think CCP absolutely misses the point here. I have flown a lot with the malediction this month and it is a great ship.
But main issue here aren´t intys but intys with links. It was and is still the same problem like it was with kitey condors:
Kiters + Skirmish links = OP.
Interceptors + Skirmish links = completely OP.
Examples:

-The low signature radius of interceptors makes them already very hard to hit with the usual counter called light missiles.
I was soloing a light missile fitted heretic in a malediction without skirmish links and no implants. Okay the guy tried to shot me with furies but if he would have taken usual cal navy ammo I would have probably been forced to run. The light fury missiles almost didn´t hit a male that orbits at 21km with 5.1k m/s.

-There is a well know corp who is almost only flying interceptors with loki and Tengu booster.
Grab 5 Raptors, 2 ogb, every Raptor has sensor damp.... --->unkillable.
I have tried it with fof rapid light caracals. We tried it with 3 fof rapid light caras.... No way. The only outcome were dead caras. They even didn´t need to run. They simply killed us.
Combination of skirmish links + interceptor point range + interceptor speed + interceptor sig radius = almost completely immune to missiles. Yes the missiles did hit. But the damage in combination of speed+ sig radius was a total joke.
You say snipe them with nado from 120km? Also doesn´t hit. We tried it^^. Forget even sentries. Too low sig radius and speed.
Arty Thrasher? Hahaha. 5 fully tech2 fitted 280mm arty thrashers couldn´t kill even one at optimal range^^ (we tried to alpha them before they got damps on us).

So the agility tweak will fix... nothing!
Really CCp you miss again the point. Main issue here is the combination of interceptors and off grid boosters and not the interceptor itself.


edit: I bet I will get flamed to death from people who don´t even know how to undock a shuttle without ogb veeeeeeery fast.


You shot the wrong ship with the nado... probe out the booster tengu/loki, which will likely have under 20k ehp, which works out to 2 1400 nados...
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#176 - 2014-01-23 00:01:20 UTC
Secret Squirrell wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
You know what would be bad-ass? If you let inties keep their agility and instead split anchorable and dictor/hic bubbles into different categories, and then gave interceptors immunity to the anchorable variety. It would let inties blow past static defenses, but would leave active interference (gate camps, carefully-positioned and -timed hic/dic drag bubbles, etc) effective against them.

While you're at it, you can apply the same stat to T3 nullifier subsystems.

This is clearly the best idea, since there's no good reason for EVE ships to be categorically immune to other players' active, directed attempts to stop them.


This would be an epic change.


Makes it too easy to run away by dropping bubbles behind you as you flee.


Umm, maybe if the party that's running away is a frigate / destroyer gang... otherwise inties' new ability to warp disgustingly quickly mean that within a system or two they'll catch up to any sort of meaty fleet comp even if they have to bounce off celestials / perch bookmarks on every gate. In the case of a gang of other frigate hulls being able to open up distance on inty pursuers, well, I don't really have a problem with that-- they're using a deliberate delaying tactic that requires a decent amount of timing / coordination, their dictor is putting itself at risk doing it (it falls behind the rest of its gang and risks getting caught in its own bubble), and the fleeing gang is composed of other extremely fast ships... they're supposed to be hard to catch.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2014-01-23 00:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Milton Middleson wrote:
I think the simplest solution to this problem is to remove bubbles and instalock setups. I feel like they give people unreasonable expectations about the efficacy of gate camps.

Also, nerf links.



Doesn't help that gatecamps tend to be manned by noobs and semi AFK alts who still expect to catch most everything with minimal effort.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#178 - 2014-01-23 08:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Secret Squirrell wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
My 5 cents:
I think CCP absolutely misses the point here. I have flown a lot with the malediction this month and it is a great ship.
But main issue here aren´t intys but intys with links. It was and is still the same problem like it was with kitey condors:
Kiters + Skirmish links = OP.
Interceptors + Skirmish links = completely OP.
Examples:

-The low signature radius of interceptors makes them already very hard to hit with the usual counter called light missiles.
I was soloing a light missile fitted heretic in a malediction without skirmish links and no implants. Okay the guy tried to shot me with furies but if he would have taken usual cal navy ammo I would have probably been forced to run. The light fury missiles almost didn´t hit a male that orbits at 21km with 5.1k m/s.

-There is a well know corp who is almost only flying interceptors with loki and Tengu booster.
Grab 5 Raptors, 2 ogb, every Raptor has sensor damp.... --->unkillable.
I have tried it with fof rapid light caracals. We tried it with 3 fof rapid light caras.... No way. The only outcome were dead caras. They even didn´t need to run. They simply killed us.
Combination of skirmish links + interceptor point range + interceptor speed + interceptor sig radius = almost completely immune to missiles. Yes the missiles did hit. But the damage in combination of speed+ sig radius was a total joke.
You say snipe them with nado from 120km? Also doesn´t hit. We tried it^^. Forget even sentries. Too low sig radius and speed.
Arty Thrasher? Hahaha. 5 fully tech2 fitted 280mm arty thrashers couldn´t kill even one at optimal range^^ (we tried to alpha them before they got damps on us).

So the agility tweak will fix... nothing!
Really CCp you miss again the point. Main issue here is the combination of interceptors and off grid boosters and not the interceptor itself.


edit: I bet I will get flamed to death from people who don´t even know how to undock a shuttle without ogb veeeeeeery fast.


You shot the wrong ship with the nado... probe out the booster tengu/loki, which will likely have under 20k ehp, which works out to 2 1400 nados...


Can´t believe how much crap I read here.
Links stay always cloaked and start only to decloak and boost when engagement begins.

And btw: I am actually in a partial noob alliance where we try to get new people into the game. Don´t know how many of them quitted after 3 days because of links and especially linked interceptors.
Had many convos already where I heard "this game isn´t woth it" after I explained how all this alt and link crap works.
But yes EVE is a game where old bittervet veterans harass newbies and that is why eve is stagnating.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#179 - 2014-01-23 12:29:13 UTC
nerf them more.
approve.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#180 - 2014-01-23 14:23:07 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
nerf them more.
approve.


Well i think the nerf goes the wrong way. There is no problem with agility.
Give intys a slighty bigger signature radius and give them the inability to get links and it is fixed.
Maybe reduce flight time of light missiles and give them higher speed, so that they work as counter to unlinked intys.
Linked intys are already invulnerable to light missiles^^
Not to mention how broken light drones are^^.
Linked intys have as I mentioned above an invulnerable mode actually. It is already hard enough to kill an unlinked inty.
But sitting with 5 guys in instalock arty thrashers and seeing a linked inty coming towards us and tackling plus killing without getting killed is just crazy.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.