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Everything at once! Counter to slowcats, blobbing, etc...

Author
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#1 - 2014-01-22 09:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Hey!


Edit : I was initially offering an AoE module like the Target Spectrum Breaker, that would make insignificant base damage but be more and more effective the more people are taken inside the AoE.

However the current discussion quickly turned to ship explosions. It is an elegant way to prevent blobbing by making nearby dying ships damage other ships in the vicinity.

More details :

  • The AoE damage should be relative to the mass + sig radius / or ship class / or whatever, of the dying ship. The AoE range could be influenced the same way, too.
  • It should have an explosion radius just like bombs do. This explosion radius should be proportional to the original sig radius /or ship class, of the dying ship.
  • The explosion radius should be scaled in a way that a decently (a bit, but not too much) tanked brawler frigate can withstand one (for a T1 frig) or two (for a T2 frig) battleship explosion before needing reps.
  • It does not prevent blobs, but each and every pilot would have to do some actual piloting and spread, instead of just anchoring the FC. As much as I understand how easier it is to lead an anchored fleet, gameplay wise the current blob warfare is... not fun. Blobbing would happen much less, you would not see a huge pack of people just like in HED. People would be less likely to play with multiple characters at once = Less lag, but same number of actual players involved.
  • If nobody dies (i.e in a slowcat group), indeed my solution won't work. It is not intended to be a mechanism that you cannot counter. But every ship that you manage to kill would enable the next kill to happen more easily, increasing the risk of a snowball that would wipe the entire blob (ie slowcat) fleet.
  • It IS a legitimate AoE mechanic. Whereas Smartbombs, Bombs, Projected ECCM, Remote Doomsday do not force the user to die, ship explosions require the person who wants to use it offensively to loose expensive stuff. Just like suicide ganking, the attacker looses something too, that's balanced.
  • The only flaw to this thing is the exponential effect that ship explosion damages could have when under a bombing run. So maybe disabling ship explosion damages for deaths caused by bombs could be a good idea.
  • AoE DO generate lag, but its a once-per-ship lag (because each ship only explodes once Lol), and the mere existence of this mechanic would reduce the likelihood of people coming beyond-massive numbers.
  • BONUS POINT about the lag : A sentry-user ship dying near its drones would clean its drones off the field by itself! Less server load! Yay! (maybe make non-sentry / non-capital drones immune to explosions. You don't want your hobgoblins become a one-time use.

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Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#2 - 2014-01-22 09:12:24 UTC
how about make it so when a ship explodes it is like hull ehp as aoe dmg in an area that is equal to sig radius x (mass/100) or something? that way people may not like to stay in each others pockets

edit. i fail at math but you get the idea.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#3 - 2014-01-22 09:26:59 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
how about make it so when a ship explodes it is like hull ehp as aoe dmg in an area that is equal to sig radius x (mass/100) or something? that way people may not like to stay in each others pockets

edit. i fail at math but you get the idea.


That would be very true and even more elegant :D

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Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#4 - 2014-01-22 09:48:04 UTC
It would be cool if there was a frig or destroyer only weapon against Capitals (sure bombs) but simpler and less specific.

I dont mind blobs but i want more small ships besides Stealth Bombers.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2014-01-22 09:55:55 UTC
A soldier sits there pressing F1 if that is what the commander commands. When groups of people clash together they act like two organisms, like the shield wall shown in the movie 300. But the 300s only work because they work as an organism instead of 300 individual heroes. The solo-kills in the middle of the battle when one pushes forward and cuts through rushing enemy soldiers would not happen in RL because if one person leaves the wall then the wall (organism) is weakened. Leaving ones position in the military formation was historically punished, even was a capital crime with death as punishment in some regions. Consider it the medieval equivalent of bumping the blue Titan.
In other words, if you wish to counter blobs, no amount of single brave or skilled person will do it, only large groups can defeat other large groups. The slowcat fleets make smaller fleets irrelevant, you can position yourself and do whatever you want with small numbers and it won't hurt a slowcat fleet (organism). How is this a broken mechanic? It just means that is the apex organism until another organism takes over. My guess is artillery naglfars in large blobs will be the next apex fleet that hunts slowcat organisms until someone evolves an organism (fleet) that can hunt arti nag fleets.
Sigras
Conglomo
#6 - 2014-01-22 10:23:07 UTC
The problem is when BIG is only countered by BIGGER then BIGGEST always wins.

From a game design standpoint that is a broken game. Remember that this is a game, and gameplay is more important than realism.

This is the same reason they did the speed changes back in 2008, when FAST is only countered by FASTER then FASTEST always wins, and that just ends up with nobody ever flying anything else.

Think about it this way. Pretend with me that supercarriers were completely unbeatable unless you had a larger force of supercarriers (i know it isnt accurate, but we're pretending for the sake of the argument). If that were the case then whoever had the most supercarriers would always win and nobody would ever fly anything other than supercarriers right? See the problem?
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#7 - 2014-01-22 10:26:42 UTC
Precisely, and having a gameplay mechanism that makes being too big becoming risky would rebalance that. Obviously there won't ever be any collision damage to Eve, that would be insane in a bad way. However, death damages could be considered :D

Maybe disable them for deaths due to bomb damages, for obvious snowball reasons... Twisted

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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-01-22 10:41:44 UTC
It could be a titan only module!

And it could be fired through cynos too!
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#9 - 2014-01-22 10:45:16 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
It could be a titan only module!

And it could be fired through cynos too!


Slowcat pilot spotted Bear

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Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-01-22 11:45:24 UTC
Wont help against 4k people in one grid. They will just have to orbit anchor(squad-wing target caller) that orbits another anchor at say 70 km.

The only way to fix blobbing is to make incentive to be in different systems (and different grids) at the same time while defending one. There already was a proposal to make sovereignty constellation-based. Another option is to replace "deal damage to capture" system with more conventional capture and hold where you just have to be present(imagine hacking concord database) with at least 1 ship around capture point to overtake it assuming there are no enemies around this point.

I personally think that it would be great in addition to current system to let corporation that controls ihub in the system repair it during reinforce timer by completing FW-like complexes that will randomly spawn in the same constellation. To the contrary any other corporation will be able to remove that restored armor/shield by capturing other plexes. This way players will have to organize into small groups and defend system by being present in different points over several hours allowing agressor to have some forced pvp. The main point is that even if one of the sides assembles blob it would be not the most efficient way to capture more plexes than the other side as blobs will have issues with mobility potentially capturing only one plex at a time while wolfpacks capture 4-5 at the same time. Another important balancing issue - the efficiency of defending the system in such way should depend on the amount of ihubs controlled by the corporation at the moment when ihub/station enters first reinforce.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#11 - 2014-01-22 11:51:01 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
Wont help against 4k people in one grid. They will just have to orbit anchor(squad-wing target caller) that orbits another anchor at say 70 km.


Well I have no problem with blobs using their brain to avoid proximity explosions...
There can be a counter to a counter, why not :D
And it will be harder to do with slowcats.

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Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-01-22 11:53:52 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Unkind Omen wrote:
Wont help against 4k people in one grid. They will just have to orbit anchor(squad-wing target caller) that orbits another anchor at say 70 km.


Well I have no problem with blobs using their brain to avoid proximity explosions...
There can be a counter to a counter, why not :D
And it will be harder to do with slowcats.


Half of solution wont work in this case. IF not the lagging the bomber wings would have been causing more than enough aoe damage to counter any blob. But it DOES lag.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#13 - 2014-01-22 11:58:07 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
IF not [the lagging] the bomber wings would have been causing more than enough aoe damage to counter any blob. But it DOES lag.


Not necessarily, bombs are designed to kill subcaps, not caps.
The damage of a cap dying should be way more important than the one of a bomb exploding.

Of course it would also need to be balanced properly to avoid brawlers being nerfed into existence...
Maybe a damage proportional to sig radiu/mass AND with an explosion radius equal to the sig radius of the ship before it died. Just like bombs have a fixed explosion radius.

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#14 - 2014-01-22 12:00:43 UTC
If ship deaths cause damage, you just made risk free ganking true. Hence why it will never work.
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-01-22 12:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Unkind Omen
Altrue wrote:
Unkind Omen wrote:
IF not [the lagging] the bomber wings would have been causing more than enough aoe damage to counter any blob. But it DOES lag.


Not necessarily, bombs are designed to kill subcaps, not caps.
The damage of a cap dying should be way more important than the one of a bomb exploding.

Of course it would also need to be balanced properly to avoid brawlers being nerfed into existence...
Maybe a damage proportional to sig radiu/mass AND with an explosion radius equal to the sig radius of the ship before it died. Just like bombs have a fixed explosion radius.


You start with presumption that you already killed at least one of those ships. But how you are planning to do that if your subcap fleet cant alfastrike slowcat anyway(Why they would need any aoe damage if they can....), and your caps/supers cant enter system because of cynojammer/server overflow.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-01-22 12:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Taking the analogy of the slowcat as a phalanx i.e strong point attack (where the shield lines meet) and strong shared defence. You can do nothing about the strong point attack *but* it can only be applied oin one place every 4 seconds (or however long). This leaves the tank.

Attack and break the tank and you can start to roll up the fleet. How about a fleet of blops in support of the dreads? Jump in and target break a group of carriers to break the tank in a localized are, then concentrate groups of dread fire on multiple carriers. This would rely on being able to take out a few carriers at a time and the blops ships jumping out again before being minced (mjjd's could be handy here).

I'm sure the fleet folks can come up with something better, but the key is to use the equivalent of fast hard-hitting cavalry to punch holes in the shield wall (tank). Hit and run tactics were the death of phalanx groups on more than one occasion.

Failing that build a space trebuchet...
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-01-22 12:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Unkind Omen
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
How about a fleet of blops in support of the dreads? Jump in and target break a group of carriers to break the tank in a localized are, then concentrate groups of dread fire on multiple carriers. .


Gravimetric Sensor Strength
80 points
Plus potentially up to 2 ECCM if they just feel they are getting jammed as they can refit instantly.

Should I also mention that BLops will die at rate of one per 4 second of game time?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-01-22 13:03:42 UTC
And if the Blops carry Target Spectrum Breakers? Sidle up to the carriers and get passive locks then uncloak and lock each other to cause mass targeting disruption before hitting the carriers? In effect it would be spider jamming I guess.

Just throwing ideas around mainly from interest and to learn as I haven't been in large scale fleet combat yet
Frank Pannon
Emerald Swine Escavations
#19 - 2014-01-22 13:10:33 UTC
I fear that if exploding ships would cause damage, in it's current state it would fry the servers with all the addtional computing to be done. They seem to have capacity issues already as it is.
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
#20 - 2014-01-22 13:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Ronny Hugo wrote:
In other words, if you wish to counter blobs, no amount of single brave or skilled person will do it, only large groups can defeat other large groups.



I have to disagree with this mentality completely. Historically speaking, 1 well skilled individual could change the course of history.

That Eve fails to incorporate properly and adequately is one of the few real disappointments I have in this game.


A ninja assassinating the right target could bring a clan to its knees, for example.

Eve's only way to really do this right now is corporate sabotage, requiring roles etc.

I would REALLY like to see specialist ships that give 0 ducks about POS shields, for instance, and go straight for sabotage, like temporarily shutting down jump bridges, or freezing a POS's processes, or heck, even jamming a Titan's Jump portal.

It would be Hella crazy to try and balance, I get it, but the mentality that the only way to fight a blob is with a blob is wrong.


EDIT: Or Locking a player in station for x amount of time.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

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