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The "Industry Survey"(sic)
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Haraukiae Youik
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-01-18 01:43:22 UTC
I actually sent an e-mail and then realized that it would find the circular file so I post it here:


This survey imho cannot begin to indicate any potential problems with S&I.



Cutting to the chase two elements:



1)The relationship between PVE and PVP has over the past years (take a time span of 5) deteriorated to the point that I now agree with the post that stated that manufacturing should be eliminated, all the skills returned and you should just npc seed all iterms. We all know about the T2 BPO scandal and the subsequent unsatisfactory response. I saw a T2 BPO and doing the math it was obvious that with invention you could never come close to competing. Invention as implemented was not a viable alternative. It seemed that you let politics trump gameplay.



Perhaps that is what you have consistenly done when it comes to pve play -- politics over gameplay.



1a - an aside) I recently came back after an 9 month hiatus and when this sub is up I might check back next year. If any competition in this niche comes out I'm with them. This game was very enjoyable for me at the beginning and for the first 5 years. When you started the nul sec expansion I was miffed that you started to separate players such that not all players could do the same gameplay; namely you gave nul sec different pve rules to play by (ships etc.) I endured that because at that time we all believed in the "sandbox" etc. and wished the game to succeed. The parting of trust for me came in ISS -- Inter Stellar Services.



1b - a second aside) Inter Stellar Services -- Since you always had been trying to push, force, nudge, etc. players into nul sec this player's idea was brilliant. He had placed and ran 3 neutral stations in nul just 1 jump from a 0.5 systems. He charged for various services and ran it like a business. I had placed some ships in the station and was going to run missions for Sisters of Eve. The locals left you alone as long as you didn't stray from the pathways between gates. People could make arrangements to mine and there were gatecamps and mass killings at times as well BUT it was drawing a lot of hi sec people into nul sec.



Then something very strange happened. He did have alliances with some merc corps for protection but CCP, with about 3 - 4 days notice suddenly changed the game mechanics so that his stations became 2-3 times easier to conquer. (I suppose you could say it was the hand of God. (!)) More like the hand of politics. So the handwriting was on the wall and all his stations fell. (and not to someone who kept them neutral.) After that it was hard to imagine that any of your statements except the one that pvp trumps all pve could be taken seriously. So....



2) You've lost most early people in pve, manufacturing, etc. that enjoyed the early pve-pvp relationship and have erroneously tried to placate pve players with pi, tech 3, or whatever (incursions were a good idea as was factional warfare) which are just windowdressing and tho they relate to a manufacturing chain you implment them such that a solo or small group player(s) cannot compete with the nul sec large corps, large alliance juggernaut as you manage gameplay such that if they complain you throw isk pools their way which in effect destroys the isk to risk ratio, i.e. nul sec plays without any isk consequence while hi sec or pve players always are involved in an isk/risk game.



So as a pve player -- why bother. I can only do missions now or some arbitrage and mining. Before I could do manufacturing as well as invention and I left before trying PI.



But imho your survey misses the problems of S&I.



Have fun all.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-01-18 04:14:15 UTC
Posting in a stealth remover t2 bpo thread.

You need to realize that if you own every t2 weapon bpo in the game, you will come nowhere close to supplying demand. T2 BPOs account for less than 5-10% of supply in most non crap ship markets.

If you want neutral or "free" stations, the whole region of providence is open to anyone. And yes it is owned by players.

Go look at the isk cost of recent nullsec wars... It goes into the trillions. And the losing side also spent hundred of billions-trillions. Your right though, clearly owning nullsec costs nothing.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#3 - 2014-01-18 14:10:15 UTC
Haraukiae Youik wrote:



1)The relationship between PVE and PVP has over the past years (take a time span of 5) deteriorated to the point that I now agree with the post that stated that manufacturing should be eliminated, all the skills returned and you should just npc seed all iterms.

1a - When you started the nul sec expansion I was miffed that you started to separate players such that not all players could do the same gameplay; namely you gave nul sec different pve rules to play by (ships etc.)

1b - a second aside) Inter Stellar Services -- Since you always had been trying to push, force, nudge, etc. players into nul sec this player's idea was brilliant. He had placed and ran 3 neutral stations in nul just 1 jump from a 0.5 systems.

Then something very strange happened. He did have alliances with some merc corps for protection but CCP, with about 3 - 4 days notice suddenly changed the game mechanics so that his stations became 2-3 times easier to conquer.

2) You've lost most early people in pve, manufacturing, etc. that enjoyed the early pve-pvp relationship and have erroneously tried to placate pve players with pi, tech 3, or whatever.

But imho your survey misses the problems of S&I.




So does your terrible post.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-01-19 15:48:34 UTC
Odd that most of my isk comes from manufacturing including invention.
My manufacturing alt is about 9 months old and all the T1 BPO's i bought from the vendors and researched myself.
I have no POS so all done in high sec stations.
I make about 700 mill/week from that char.
Manufacturing and invention are clearly not worthwhile as the T2 BPO's make it pointless.

NOT.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Nate Guralman
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-01-20 17:53:41 UTC
Haraukiae Youik wrote:
1)The relationship between PVE and PVP has over the past years (take a time span of 5) deteriorated to the point that ...


Can you elaborate on this? What do you mean that the relationship between PVE and PVP has deteriorated? PVE isn't as fun as PVP? Can't make a career as a PVE'er?

Haraukiae Youik wrote:
So as a pve player -- why bother. I can only do missions now or some arbitrage and mining. Before I could do manufacturing as well as invention and I left before trying PI.


Again, I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at. Like others in this thread have mentioned, T1 production is a very viable career path. Given the amount of competition there is in T1/T2 production, invention, research, etc, a lot of players disagree with your assessment. Remember, just about everything sold on the market is produced by players. Go take a look at the volume of items sold, you'll see that the industrial economy in this game is extremely healthy.

In my opinion, I think a lot players such as yourself who are disenchanted with production consider this style of play to be PVE. It isn't. It's PVP, and it's a brutal form of PVP at that, arguably far more brutal than ship to ship combat. The same is true for market trading, mining, etc. If you think you can just casually mine, trade or manufacture items and make tons of ISK, you're gravely mistaken.



Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#6 - 2014-01-20 20:40:26 UTC
Haraukiae Youik wrote:
I saw a T2 BPO and doing the math it was obvious that with invention you could never come close to competing.

On some items, using a per-unit measure, you can't compete with T2 BPO's. On other items, looking at a per-unit measure, it's quite easy to compete with a T2 BPO.

However, T2 BPO's aren't worth much of anything for one critical reason: A single character can crank out significantly higher number of T2 BPC's in the same amount of time that a single T2 BPO can be used. You can try using the T2 BPO to make copies, but... well, take a look at the copy times vs. the invention times and costs, and you tell us if having a 100+ billion ISK T2 BPO is worth the cost at that point over a cheap T1 BPO with Invention.

For a popular item, creating BPC's through invention is significantly faster and more lucrative than having a T2 BPO. It's better to use a T2 BPO for straight manufacturing, during which time another single character might be able to pump out a dozen (or more) invented BPC's. For less popular items (such as the Eagle) with low volumes, the existence of T2 BPO's makes the item cheaper than you can with invention, meaning you (theoretically) have access to a cheaper product.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#7 - 2014-01-21 21:32:41 UTC
Invention is a joke in both mechanics and lore.


T2 BPOs of certain products exist and give those with them an advantage over those who don't.
Those with T2 BPOs save time, effort, and isk creating T2 products as they don't have to invent and have higher ME/PE values than BPCs meaning they can create T2 products at less cost.
This means they can undercut an inventor at lower rates before they lose isk.
CCP needs to choose a side and stick with it instead of letting both exist.


Let's talk lore. Once you invent something you magically forget how you did it. There's no notes or memory of how you made a functioning T2 product. Every time it's a percent chance you invent something. It's not like T2 products are dynamic based on who made them. They all have the same static stats regardless of the ME/PE.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2014-01-21 23:28:11 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:

T2 BPOs of certain products exist and give those with them an advantage over those who don't.
Those with T2 BPOs save time, effort, and isk creating T2 products as they don't have to invent and have higher ME/PE values than BPCs meaning they can create T2 products at less cost.
This means they can undercut an inventor at lower rates before they lose isk.
CCP needs to choose a side and stick with it instead of letting both exist.


How long ago did the t2 BPO lottery end?
It was during Revelations, released around November 2006

You might have had a case for obliterating T2 BPOs many, many years ago, where people originally obtained t2 BPO's by luck. However, at this point, most people that have them worked for them (by thieving, killing, or buying them). Removing them now is just wrong on many levels, primarily because you're destroying years of efforts of many players that use them as investment items, and which acquired them by fair and balanced means.

Now, no one (intelligent) can dispute that T2 BPO's allow players to produce a t2 items more profitably on a per-item basis compared to invention (that is, when you ignore the cost of acquiring the t2 BPO). But most items in game are profitably produced by invention, and attacking the BPO holders really won't result in you making more isk (instead, you'll just realize more quickly that you are just bad at T2 Production, probably because you aren't informed).

Look at the facts:

In March 2012, the percentage of modules produce from invention:

93.95% of T2 Gyrostabilizers,
89.77% of 1400mm II,
87.34% of 425mm Rail II,
82.00% of Tachyon II,
74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II.

In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:

90.23% of Hulks,
67.85% of Sabres
65.01% of Wolves
22.16% of Pilgrims
6.00% of Eagles

Data Source
Additional Data Source
Direct Source <-- Have to search to find the relevant tweets.

Here's the point: Modules and Ammo are primarily produced through invention, so removal of those BPO's wont do anything but HURT the BPO holder.... These producers wont see more profit, and the consumers wont get any items cheaper.... Considering the work most BPO holders put in to acquire their BPO, this is just cruel and wrong to do!!!! Now, Ship production is often dominated by t2 BPO holders... however these items move slowly, and typically priced BELOW the invention production cost.... so removing these BPO's would result in HIGHER PRICES for people that want to buy these ships.... How is that good???? Sure, it means people that want to produce Eagles via invention could then make a profit, but who wants to reward the idiotic fool that is trying to produce slow moving T2 Ships for profit by paying more for those ships????

I have few more points:
1.) Many serious producers secure moongoo and minerals at BELOW MARKET VALUE. If you are competing against them, you're just going to lose.... Should this be fixed too? I think not, I like getting cheaper items....

2.) I'm not opposed to giving a boon to t2 production at POS's, such that we can produce t2 items at high-ME levels (which won't really alter module production all that much, but will ammo & ship production). The caveat.... this new POS production module can ONLY be done in LOWSEC or NULLSEC....

3.) I'd like there to be more risk to using ALL BPOs.... Having a BPO safely locked away in a station where it's at extremely low risk seems broken to me.... I realize we can't force expensive BPOs to be used AT THE POS until POS's have been revamped so players can have secure-able POS hangars, but implementing something like this would be awesome!!

4.) This is the duplicate of an old post I made... many things have changed in the last year (new decrytpors, ship balance changes have altered supply/demand curves, the moongoo bottleneck has changed), but the message is the same. You can make plenty of isk via invention, and you can compete in most MFG markets. If you are having trouble making a profit, it is because of your incompetence!

Finally, everything in this game is about Risk vs Reward: Put to much cargo in your hauler, someone might suicide gank it. Put too much isk on your Mission boat, someone might gank it. Setup a S&I POS, and someone might wardec you and attack it. Highsec is much less risky than any other area of space, and I can't fathom why you're upset that nullsec enjoys rewards give that their stations and POS's can be attacked at any moment.

Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#9 - 2014-01-22 00:43:32 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kirkwood Ross wrote:

T2 BPOs of certain products exist and give those with them an advantage over those who don't.
Those with T2 BPOs save time, effort, and isk creating T2 products as they don't have to invent and have higher ME/PE values than BPCs meaning they can create T2 products at less cost.
This means they can undercut an inventor at lower rates before they lose isk.
CCP needs to choose a side and stick with it instead of letting both exist.


How long ago did the t2 BPO lottery end?
It was during Revelations, released around November 2006

You might have had a case for obliterating T2 BPOs many, many years ago, where people originally obtained t2 BPO's by luck. However, at this point, most people that have them worked for them (by thieving, killing, or buying them). Removing them now is just wrong on many levels, primarily because you're destroying years of efforts of many players that use them as investment items, and which acquired them by fair and balanced means.

Now, no one (intelligent) can dispute that T2 BPO's allow players to produce a t2 items more profitably on a per-item basis compared to invention (that is, when you ignore the cost of acquiring the t2 BPO). But most items in game are profitably produced by invention, and attacking the BPO holders really won't result in you making more isk (instead, you'll just realize more quickly that you are just bad at T2 Production, probably because you aren't informed).

Look at the facts:

In March 2012, the percentage of modules produce from invention:

93.95% of T2 Gyrostabilizers,
89.77% of 1400mm II,
87.34% of 425mm Rail II,
82.00% of Tachyon II,
74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II.

In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:

90.23% of Hulks,
67.85% of Sabres
65.01% of Wolves
22.16% of Pilgrims
6.00% of Eagles

Data Source
Additional Data Source
Direct Source <-- Have to search to find the relevant tweets.

Here's the point: Modules and Ammo are primarily produced through invention, so removal of those BPO's wont do anything but HURT the BPO holder.... These producers wont see more profit, and the consumers wont get any items cheaper.... Considering the work most BPO holders put in to acquire their BPO, this is just cruel and wrong to do!!!! Now, Ship production is often dominated by t2 BPO holders... however these items move slowly, and typically priced BELOW the invention production cost.... so removing these BPO's would result in HIGHER PRICES for people that want to buy these ships.... How is that good???? Sure, it means people that want to produce Eagles via invention could then make a profit, but who wants to reward the idiotic fool that is trying to produce slow moving T2 Ships for profit by paying more for those ships????

I have few more points:
1.) Many serious producers secure moongoo and minerals at BELOW MARKET VALUE. If you are competing against them, you're just going to lose.... Should this be fixed too? I think not, I like getting cheaper items....

2.) I'm not opposed to giving a boon to t2 production at POS's, such that we can produce t2 items at high-ME levels (which won't really alter module production all that much, but will ammo & ship production). The caveat.... this new POS production module can ONLY be done in LOWSEC or NULLSEC....

3.) I'd like there to be more risk to using ALL BPOs.... Having a BPO safely locked away in a station where it's at extremely low risk seems broken to me.... I realize we can't force expensive BPOs to be used AT THE POS until POS's have been revamped so players can have secure-able POS hangars, but implementing something like this would be awesome!!

4.) This is the duplicate of an old post I made... many things have changed in the last year (new decrytpors, ship balance changes have altered supply/demand curves, the moongoo bottleneck has changed), but the message is the same. You can make plenty of isk via invention, and you can compete in most MFG markets. If you are having trouble making a profit, it is because of your incompetence!

Finally, everything in this game is about Risk vs Reward: Put to much cargo in your hauler, someone might suicide gank it. Put too much isk on your Mission boat, someone might gank it. Setup a S&I POS, and someone might wardec you and attack it. Highsec is much less risky than any other area of space, and I can't fathom why you're upset that nullsec enjoys rewards give that their stations and POS's can be attacked at any moment.



You agreed with my point that T2 BPO holders have an advantage over inventors because they have lower costs to create T2 products.
You disagreed about my opinion about having T2 BPOs removed.
You then went off on random tangents claiming I'm ignorant or incompetent and can't make a profit. Also about moongoo being below market and you cannot compete with nullsec. Then there was something about me being upset about null sec rewards for holding space and their stations.

Moons, systems, and stations can always be claimed by someone else so that's fine. T2 BPOs really can't be taken from players like the former and sit safely in the corp hanger of their owners. New T2 BPOs cannot be created unless CCP does it themselves.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2014-01-22 01:19:32 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:


You agreed with my point that T2 BPO holders have an advantage over inventors because they have lower costs to create T2 products.
You disagreed about my opinion about having T2 BPOs removed.
You then went off on random tangents claiming I'm ignorant or incompetent and can't make a profit. Also about moongoo being below market and you cannot compete with nullsec. Then there was something about me being upset about null sec rewards for holding space and their stations.

Moons, systems, and stations can always be claimed by someone else so that's fine. T2 BPOs really can't be taken from players like the former and sit safely in the corp hanger of their owners. New T2 BPOs cannot be created unless CCP does it themselves.


Sorry, I didn't tailor the post specifically to your thread very well, as much of it was a copy / paste job.

1.) I agree that t2 BPO holders have an advantage over inventors.

2.) I think t2 BPO's absolutely should remain in the game. I consider the statue of limitations expired for removing them from the game.

3.) I know nothing about your capabilities (this was aimed at someone claiming you couldn't make a profit using t2 invention). I do know that removing t2 BPO's from the game will simply result in generally higher prices for low-volume t2 goods (where t2 BPO producers monopolize the market). I consider paying higher prices so joe-blow moron can make a profit producing slow-moving-t2-item to be a disservice to everyone.

4.) I didn't say anything about "can't compete with nullsec". I'm pointing out that many players have very competitive production costs because they get their materials at a reduced cost. Some of this comes from moongoo contacts, some of this comes from bulk purchasing of minerals, some of this is because people don't value the minerals they mine or the hours they put in to harvest materials.

5.) "T2 BPOs really can't be taken from players like the former and sit safely in the corp hanger of their owners." While this is technically untrue (as many people have lost their t2 bpo's by having a thief infiltrate their corp and steal their bpos), I do agree that using BPO's is generally too safe (and I'm talking about ALL BPOs here), and would like to limit the ability to use BPO's stored safely in a station.

6.) This statement doesn't make much sense to me: "Nul sec plays without any isk consequence while hi sec or pve players always are involved in an isk/risk game." Nullsec players generally have less protections than a highsec player, where they can easily lose their ships, they can lose their POSes, and they can lose access to the stations they live out of. Perhaps your trying to say, that for many nullsec residents, the measure of a successful week has little to do with asset & wealth accumulation, and much more to do with other aspects of the game (like number of ships exploded or the quality of pew pew).

7.) You can now steal moongoo from a moon mining POS. The owners don't receive any notifications you are doing this, and unless they regularly monitor the POS it is your to take. Soon, you'll be able to steal reprocessed materials too (although I'm less supportive of this change). I'm pointing this out, to show that CCP is actively implementing tools that you can use to undermine their moon mining operations, which is also one of the major reasons nullsec empires have started using renters to accumulate wealth. Renters are often very focused on Isk/hr activities!

Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-01-22 05:14:40 UTC
Haraukiae Youik wrote:
I actually sent an e-mail and then realized that it would find the circular file so I post it here:


1)The relationship between PVE and PVP has over the past years (take a time span of 5) deteriorated to the point that I now agree with the post that stated that manufacturing should be eliminated, all the skills returned and you should just npc seed all iterms. We all know about the T2 BPO scandal and the subsequent unsatisfactory response. I saw a T2 BPO and doing the math it was obvious that with invention you could never come close to competing. Invention as implemented was not a viable alternative. It seemed that you let politics trump gameplay.



We all know about T2 BPO's and most people who know what they are doing know they pose little threat to the profitability of manufacturing. Did your math include the 15B - 200B cost of the T2 BPO and the time it would take to become profitable? Did your math include the time it takes to manufacture from a T2 BPO vs T2 invented BPC's? No it did not.

And yes some items are unprofitable to manufacture. This isn't because of T2 BPO's. It is because of supply and demand and peoples abilities to buy materials at lower costs then you.

So this sounds like a you problem; not a T2 BPO problem.
Ave Kathrina
My Ass Is On Fire
#12 - 2014-01-22 07:30:08 UTC
Removing invention and manufacturing would simply result in me closing my accounts because I'd be bored out of my balls
I've done some really stupid shit in this game.
Ginger Barbarella
#13 - 2014-01-23 00:12:58 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Posting in a stealth remover t2 bpo thread.



This. I actually started reading this with the hope of a good conversation starting, and the OP's intent quickly became obvious to the point of looking rediculous. Shame, really.

Hey, OP, if you don't like non-PVP activities, don't participate in them. But don't **** and moan about it to those that may, and don't do the usual "high sec is for pu$$ies" crap that you seem to be preaching here.

Seriously, if you don't like EveO as it stands now, you have two choices:
1) lolragequit and go back to World of Tanks or whatever the hell
2) write your own intarwebz spaceships game the way you think it should work.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
twit brent
Never Not AFK
#14 - 2014-01-23 18:31:30 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Invention is a joke in both mechanics and lore.


T2 BPOs of certain products exist and give those with them an advantage over those who don't.
Those with T2 BPOs save time, effort, and isk creating T2 products as they don't have to invent and have higher ME/PE values than BPCs meaning they can create T2 products at less cost.
This means they can undercut an inventor at lower rates before they lose isk.
CCP needs to choose a side and stick with it instead of letting both exist.


Let's talk lore. Once you invent something you magically forget how you did it. There's no notes or memory of how you made a functioning T2 product. Every time it's a percent chance you invent something. It's not like T2 products are dynamic based on who made them. They all have the same static stats regardless of the ME/PE.


So if someone did the math and invested 100 bill in buying a t2 BPO off someone, they would just be **** out of luck when they got removed?
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-01-26 20:18:32 UTC
-1

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Natasha Karelin
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
#16 - 2014-01-29 13:16:15 UTC
This was a very long and confusing post but there is one thing I agree with: The recent S&I survey was pretty crappy, I filled it but I felt the questions are too manipulative. I'm sure it will yield results that CCP wanted.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-01-29 13:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Natasha Karelin wrote:
This was a very long and confusing post but there is one thing I agree with: The recent S&I survey was pretty crappy, I filled it but I felt the questions are too manipulative. I'm sure it will yield results that CCP wanted.


It looks like they are deliberately pushing for some sort of cooperative industry mechanics.

Something we never really asked for.

I blame CSM. They seem to think that anybody who doesn't play in one of the massive alliances is "not playing EVE correctly."...Probably because most of them come from massive alliances, themselves.

I hope they realize that most of us are just going to "cooperate" with our alts.

Kirkwood Ross wrote:
T2 BPOs of certain products exist and give those with them an advantage over those who don't.
Those with T2 BPOs save time, effort, and isk creating T2 products as they don't have to invent and have higher ME/PE values than BPCs meaning they can create T2 products at less cost.
This means they can undercut an inventor at lower rates before they lose isk.
CCP needs to choose a side and stick with it instead of letting both exist.


This is dumb. You can compete with T2 BPOs by just outproducing the daylights out of them. There's only a few exceptions - like Command ships.

For most items, the existence of the T2 BPO does not effect the market much. For the few items they do - just avoid them.

And sure, it's an advantage to own one, but pretty much all of them have changed hands many times by now. They are quite expensive.

The good ones (the ones that have a reasonable chance of producing a good profit in the first year) can cost more than 80b isk. To be perfectly honest I could find better things to do with 80b ISK within industry than blow it all on a single T2 BPO.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#18 - 2014-01-29 16:22:09 UTC
please remove all characters with all science skills trained to V they clearly have an unfair advantage over myself when it comes to producing tier 2 items
Haraukiae Youik
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-01-30 21:07:29 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Haraukiae Youik wrote:



1)The relationship between PVE and PVP has over the past years (take a time span of 5) deteriorated to the point that I now agree with the post that stated that manufacturing should be eliminated, all the skills returned and you should just npc seed all iterms.

1a - When you started the nul sec expansion I was miffed that you started to separate players such that not all players could do the same gameplay; namely you gave nul sec different pve rules to play by (ships etc.)

1b - a second aside) Inter Stellar Services -- Since you always had been trying to push, force, nudge, etc. players into nul sec this player's idea was brilliant. He had placed and ran 3 neutral stations in nul just 1 jump from a 0.5 systems.

Then something very strange happened. He did have alliances with some merc corps for protection but CCP, with about 3 - 4 days notice suddenly changed the game mechanics so that his stations became 2-3 times easier to conquer.

2) You've lost most early people in pve, manufacturing, etc. that enjoyed the early pve-pvp relationship and have erroneously tried to placate pve players with pi, tech 3, or whatever.

But imho your survey misses the problems of S&I.




So does your terrible post.


Aw.
Haraukiae Youik
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-01-31 07:10:57 UTC
I wasn't going to post further but...

At the outset let me say I am neither a game designer nor a programmer (as many of the original EVE players were.) so I don't know the catchwords.

If we define PVP as the positive or negative actions between 2 or more players then the definition includes not just ship to ship combat but the assorted interactions between parties that can have ++ / +- / - - results.

If we define PVE as merely the interactions of player vs NPC (environment) then these are only + or - as there is no cooperation involved with an NPC(environment.)

EVE as originally designed recognized this thru the ISK and market systems. Players co-operated as one does in any economy to produce results that were beneficial to both players. As is human nature some take advantage of others and in doing so often become ostracized. We called it market pvp. Markets by their very nature involve humans who on the whole make very sophisticated judgments but CCP went in the direction of player battles to the exclusion of deeper player interaction.

As the joke used to be in help “I hit W but my ship didn't move” teal:”This isn't WOW. We don't use WASD.” but a shallow market (or a market where people go against common sense and produce consistently below cost because money has become meaningless) and exclusive emphasis on PVP ship battles has made EVE WOW-lite.

Consider: A WOW battleground of 15 players; 25 players; and EVE battle system of 2000 players. One is larger than the other but it is still an equal battleground (or does CCP favor a winner by letting more of one combatant into the system?)

Again: WOW ganking at leveling up systems where WOW style “hot dropping” occurs killing players and NPCs and EVE “hot drops” ganking style & hi sec ganking of 10-1 or more.

You have a higher death penalty in EVE? No implants in battle and just clone insurance; you resurrect in either instance if desired in battle just like WOW.

You have a more complicated industrial stream in EVE? Is it smoke and mirrors and just a time sink? Most if not all nul sec structures have never been near a market as a market is superfluous, as does WOW use time sinks to farm various rare items. These actions do not involve player interaction. (I can always get an alt to do it.)

The great nul sec empires were built by exclusively PVE mechanics that didn't use markets thereby isolating and fragmenting the player community as (we can only conclude) was the intent of CCP as a way to cause conflict but not positive player interaction.

Their only next possible move is to further coerce characters (assuming they do play at a computer) into commune-type activities in which they support others and not themselves. Independence of action is excluded as whatever organizational structure (corp) they work for excludes personal action or motivation. This also is the exact opposite of what CCP says about the “sandbox” and everyone who soon discovers this leaves the game. After all we are not fighting for the glory of the Emperor or the pride of being called an Englishman. We are fighting for.............??? (the next 2k staged battle?)

It is pointless to go on or to even try to organize the many facets of how a once great and promising game has deteriorated to a poor cousin of a point and shooter but you would have to had been here years ago to fully appreciate the game that with the lousiest graphics (hence the term-- space spreadsheets) in game history that used to have us enthralled for 12 hour stretches (25 jumps used to take an hour.)LOL. I think the last fight US CAREBEARS won was we saved the voice of Aura....JUMPING..............


PS I cry real tears not game tears.

Apologies for not editing properly.