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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1801 - 2014-01-21 15:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
+1

This would be soooo much better than docking / POSing up.



Edit: I have removed unnecessary stereotyping. ISD Ezwal.
Combat Wombatz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1802 - 2014-01-21 15:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Combat Wombatz
The fact that this now gives LP as an added bonus is a good change, and I am glad you guys seem to be open to the ideas presented by the community here. As long as this structure is attached to a blanket nullsec nerf, however, it has no place in the game.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#1803 - 2014-01-21 16:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
Nope, still doesn't make sense.

Does the LP go to the player or the ESS?

Does it get printed out into tags to be stolen?

Is isk payout still removed from bounties?

Does that isk go to the ESS to be printed and stolen?

Is the 5% blanket reduction still in place?

Somebody get on the test server and figure this thing out, the explanation sure did nothing.-thanks giznitt

Onto the more...pointed questions:

Why do you still think nullsec residents should be unable to be self-sufficient, suckling off empire's teat?

Was this idea brought to the CSM8 Summer Summit?

What was the original iteration of the idea?

If the original iteration was shelved, the devblog iteration reviled, how does a 'fresh coat of paint' or 'tweaking the numbers' fix the fundamental flaws?

Namely:

-Current system-
hostiles in local
players dock pve ships
home defence fleet forms or not

-Friendly ESS-
hostiles in local
players dock pve ships
disposable alt pushes button
home defence fleet forms or not

-Hostile ESS-
hostiles in local
players dock pve ships
home defence fleet forms or not
structure shoot!

The only thing that has changed between -current- and -ESS- is either: The existence of a disposable alt (and killmail) in something like a t1 cruiser that will survive 20 seconds OR a (now longer, more EHP YAY) structure shoot.

Meanwhile an alt in a t1 cruiser could be as easily afking hubs for 15m/tick. I don't think whatever LP gained will much offset the babysitting of this module, given nullsec systems can support perhaps 3-4 simultaneous ratters, and the character that runs the sites has to go to empire on a regular basis to cash out. If you don't babysit, you run a very high risk of not making it to the ESS (3 minutes is an incredibly short period of time when warping in a battleship, for example). If you change the numbers to favour the thief, the locals have no reason to use it, if you change the numbers to favour the locals, the thieves will never appear.

Once again, you've proven there's literally no reason anyone in their right mind would use this module. Lot's of theoretical, 'maybe if...' wishful thinking going on. Absolutely zero thought about how the base concept would fly or fail based on how eve is actually played.

I do like some of the tweaks, it would be neat to see this "infinipoint module" in some iteration (ie. FW complexes) and it's nice to see you're finally putting some serious thought into this. The problem is it's ultimately just a bad idea, and needs to go back to the drawing board, be dismantled, set fire to, ashes examined, and lessons learned. Stop wasting time and making shiny features pages. Restore the faith.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1804 - 2014-01-21 16:07:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Adding a third form of distribution currency doesn't alleviate any of my complaints: that it's too complicated/convoluted.

It just makes it more complex. Coupled with the fact that it puts the LP in the can and not in my wallet is a slam dunk for fail.

Why would I have my /loyalty points/ put in a can? That goes against the entire premise of LP - that they are an untradable good, and represent services rendered to a specific faction.

Pressing the "take all" button does not to me sound like a service rendered.

I still can't figure out how such an idea actually made it this far...

I read this as the loyalty points are not in the can, they are awarded directly to you.


This is correct. The LP goes directly to the wallets of each pilot as they get their isk ticks.

Is that for both the "share" and "take all" buttons? Or does "take all" still print tags?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1805 - 2014-01-21 16:10:35 UTC

I just want to be clear: This is the how the system now works:


All Systems are still receiving a 5% nerf to bounty income. Rats that display a 100k isk bounty will put 95k isk in your wallet.

If you Deploy an ESS:

You risk ~15% of your income from bounties:
  • Rats that display a 100k isk bounty will now put 80k isk directly into your wallet.
  • The 15k isk you risked, as well as an additional 5-10k isk are then stored in the ESS.

    • You get a Direct recompense for the isk you risk:
  • You earn Empire Navy LP for every NPC you kill. A 100k isk bounty rat pays 15-20 LP directly into your LP Wallet.

    • The Claimable Award:
  • To claim the isk stored in the ESS (20-25k for every 100k rat you kill) you must access the ESS.
  • It takes 20s to access the ESS and hit "share all". The Share all button distributes the isk stored into the LP directly into every ratters wallet (no tags),
  • It takes 3 minutes to access the ESS and hit "claim all". The claim all action drops an ISK-tag you can return to empire Navies to exchange for all the isk stored in the ESS.
  • When accessing the ESS, your ship is infinite point warp disrupted (no more bubble).

    • A few points:
    -- There is still a 5% nerf to all ratting income that doesn't use the ESS. Is everyone alright with the ESS now because it pays out better rewards?

    A few questions:
    -- Can two people attempt to access the ESS at the same time?

    -- Outside of being ward disrupted, will accessing the ESS cause combat hindering popups and the like?

    -- After the 3 Minute access period, how long does it take the ESS to drop the isk-tags? (is 3 minutes enough time for the locals to form up and defend the ESS from a hostile inty stealing your stuff?)

    -- Can I park an alt on the ESS, with the share all button open and ready to be pressed, such that I can hit press all the moment someone comes into system?

    -- What happens when you stop interacting with the ESS: Are you still warp disrupted? For example, if I land on the ESS and hit share all (20s later), can I then warp off, or must I burn away first and/or scoop the ESS?

    -- How can your opponent stop you from interacting with the ESS? Example Scenario: Let's say we bring in a fleet into system and the ratters get safe. They then warp a noobship alt directly to the ESS with the goal of hitting share all and distributing the income within. I don't get notification that this is happening until the noobship is on top of the ESS, at which point I have 20 seconds to warp to the ESS and stop them from hitting the share all feature. Does this not seem too short to anyone else, especially if I have to blow up their ship to accomplish this?

    -- Can I access the ESS in a pod?

    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #1806 - 2014-01-21 16:18:58 UTC

    Does the LP go to the player or the ESS?
    --- LP goes directly to the Player!

    Does it get printed out into tags to be stolen?
    ---- LP goes directly to the Player

    Is isk payout still removed from bounties?
    --- Deploying the ESS reduces your bounty payout by and additional 15%. The blanket 5% reduction is still in effect, so with an ESS deployed, you get 80k isk for every 100k NPC you destroy. 20k-25k isk will be stored in the ESS. 15-20 LP appears in your LP wallet.

    Does that isk go to the ESS to be printed and stolen?
    --- Isk in the ESS may be shared (at which point it goes directly into your wallet) or stolen (which prints an isk-tag that must be taken to empire navies to redeem).

    Is the 5% blanket reduction still in place?
    --- Yes it is.

    Why do you still think nullsec residents should be unable to be self-sufficient, suckling off empire's teat?
    --- They purposely intertwine game resources so one area of game play may affect another.

    What was the original iteration of the idea?
    --- It didn't pay out LP, and had quicker access to the "take all" button. It also had a warp bubble around it instead of focused warp disruption.

    If the original iteration was shelved, the devblog iteration reviled, how does a 'fresh coat of paint' or 'tweaking the numbers' fix the fundamental flaws?
    --- It changed the risk reward ratio, which made it more desirable to utilize.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #1807 - 2014-01-21 16:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
    Also, can these be deployed in NPC nullsec? I was under the impression they could.

    *edit for more questions*

    Can is immediately scoop the ESS upon landing, removing the beacon in local and not have to worry about warp disruption?

    Is the warp disruption mechanic targeted, meaning I can no longer cloak if it is "disrupting" me?

    and for those who missed it, the size of the ESS is 200 m3.
    Johan March
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1808 - 2014-01-21 16:21:12 UTC
    Much better CCP. I might actually use the thing now.
    Steve Ronuken
    Fuzzwork Enterprises
    Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
    #1809 - 2014-01-21 16:22:26 UTC
    RoCCommander
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1810 - 2014-01-21 16:25:29 UTC
    CCP SoniClover wrote:
    Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

    Additions/edit
    * With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.


    * Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.


    If got 2 Questions:
    1. What is the effect on ISK? Is it still 95% without ESS, and 80% with ESS and 20-25% in LP stored in the ESS or is just a plain addition, so 80% with ESS, 20-25% in ISK soret in the ESS (with the option for Tags) and the LP?
    2. Does the range increase also cover POS? Or can I still setup a deathstar next to the ESS that just kills everyone interacting with the ESS?
    Rekkr Nordgard
    Steelforge Heavy Industries
    #1811 - 2014-01-21 16:25:53 UTC
    CCP SoniClover wrote:
    Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

    Additions/edit
    * With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.
    * There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
    * Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.

    Also, some of the stats have changed:
    * Price lowered from 30 million to 25 million
    * Hit points increased from 150k to 250k
    * Volume increased from 150 to 200
    * Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.
    * Activation time increased to 120 seconds, up from 60 seconds

    Some of these changes are already out on Sisi, the rest should be there soon. Thank you all for your feedback.


    I don't understand why people who were opposed to the ESS before suddenly now love the idea. These changes fix nothing; stop trying to polish a turd - it's still just a turd.

    There's no mention of rolling back the 95%/80% nerf to nullsec ratting income, so most of the changes in your post are irrelevant since ESSs will still be KOS to all major alliances and no ratter in his right mind is going to deploy one. No one is going to risk 20% of their ratting income for a measly LP payout, especially since if everyone used an ESS that LP would soon be worthless. Lowering the price and upgrading the EHP are stupid "shooting structures is fun!" changes. 120 seconds is still 480 too short - minimum. I would be pissed about you trying to devalue LP for both highsec and nullsec, but since no one is going to use this, hopefully that will be avoided.

    tl;dr - the fundamental concepts behind this deployable as still present and deeply flawed and none of these minor changes fixes that, if it even can be fixed. You would still be far better served simply scrapping the ESS entirely and going back to the drawing board instead of continuing to try to force this piece of trash down our throats.
    Pinky Hops
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #1812 - 2014-01-21 16:28:18 UTC
    Steve Ronuken
    Fuzzwork Enterprises
    Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
    #1813 - 2014-01-21 16:33:20 UTC
    Pinky Hops wrote:
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    In a bout of shameless self promotion:

    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/

    CN
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/sell/10000002/1000035/withblueprints
    FN
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/sell/10000002/1000120/withblueprints
    RF
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/sell/10000002/1000051/withblueprints
    AN
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/sell/10000002/1000084/withblueprints


    Sell orders are a bit deceptive, as are the low volume outliers.

    I'd put the honest average at about 1200 isk / lp


    Buy prices (all materials acquired at sell order prices, based of the average price for 5% of the market)

    CN
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/buy/10000002/1000035/withblueprints
    FN
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/buy/10000002/1000120/withblueprints
    RF
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/buy/10000002/1000051/withblueprints
    AN
    https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/buy/10000002/1000084/withblueprints


    You're entirely right. The tool doesn't eliminate a requirement to think, just allows for a little more focusing.

    Woo! CSM XI!

    Fuzzwork Enterprises

    Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
    Eram Fidard
    Doomheim
    #1814 - 2014-01-21 16:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


    Why do you still think nullsec residents should be unable to be self-sufficient, suckling off empire's teat?
    --- They purposely intertwine game resources so one area of game play may affect another. You can hardly call mineral compression, hideous mineral proportions in nullsec grav sites, jump-freightering of everything relevant PURPOSEFUL INTERTWINING, sorry =D. No more so for this, it's bad. I didn't even touch on the LP market impacts.

    What was the original iteration of the idea?
    --- It didn't pay out LP, and had quicker access to the "take all" button. It also had a warp bubble around it instead of focused warp disruption. I meant the 'original' iteration, not the one posted in this devblog, which was obviously a patchwork. Since you're not CSM or CCP I can't take your word that was the original iteration.

    If the original iteration was shelved, the devblog iteration reviled, how does a 'fresh coat of paint' or 'tweaking the numbers' fix the fundamental flaws?
    --- It changed the risk reward ratio, which made it more desirable to utilize. That's your opinion, and since you're not a CCP dev, I'm not particularly interested. My assertion is that (too high) opportunity cost is much more important in this calculation than risk/reward.


    Thanks for taking the effort to respond

    Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #1815 - 2014-01-21 16:34:20 UTC
    RoCCommander wrote:
    CCP SoniClover wrote:
    Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

    Additions/edit
    * With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.


    * Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.


    If got 2 Questions:
    1. What is the effect on ISK? Is it still 95% without ESS, and 80% with ESS and 20-25% in LP stored in the ESS or is just a plain addition, so 80% with ESS, 20-25% in ISK soret in the ESS (with the option for Tags) and the LP?
    2. Does the range increase also cover POS? Or can I still setup a deathstar next to the ESS that just kills everyone interacting with the ESS?


    1.) Imagine you kill a 100m isk in NPC's:
  • With out the ESS, you get 95m isk into your wallet. (i.e. it is still 95% without the ESS).

  • With the ESS, you get 80m into your wallet, and you get 15k-20k LP into your wallet. 20-25m isk will be stored in the ESS (to be shared or stolen by any player that accesses it).

    • 2.) The ESS may not be deployed within several 100 km's of a POS. (Hopefully the 3000 km range increase is for POSes too, as 300 is too close!).
    Falkor1984
    The Love Dragons
    #1816 - 2014-01-21 16:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Falkor1984
    91 pages and counting.....just saying....maybe its a good idea to reconsider this.....

    Edit: any answer on this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4128627#post4128627

    Would be nice to know if the other deployables from this SF crew are actually working.
    Pinky Hops
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #1817 - 2014-01-21 16:35:36 UTC
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    The tool doesn't eliminate a requirement to think, just allows for a little more focusing.


    I wasn't dissing your tool, was just making a heads up in case anybody clicked into it and DIDN'T think...I sorted by ISK and saw some that were listed at like 12,000 isk/ LP (low volume obviously)

    I use your website all the time btw <3...the blueprint calculator is a killer
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #1818 - 2014-01-21 16:35:45 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Weaselior wrote:
    Pinky Hops wrote:
    Adding a third form of distribution currency doesn't alleviate any of my complaints: that it's too complicated/convoluted.

    It just makes it more complex. Coupled with the fact that it puts the LP in the can and not in my wallet is a slam dunk for fail.

    Why would I have my /loyalty points/ put in a can? That goes against the entire premise of LP - that they are an untradable good, and represent services rendered to a specific faction.

    Pressing the "take all" button does not to me sound like a service rendered.

    I still can't figure out how such an idea actually made it this far...

    I read this as the loyalty points are not in the can, they are awarded directly to you.


    This is correct. The LP goes directly to the wallets of each pilot as they get their isk ticks.


    so then all the ess holds is the 20% of the isk that i would have made?

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #1819 - 2014-01-21 16:43:06 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Weaselior wrote:
    Pinky Hops wrote:
    Adding a third form of distribution currency doesn't alleviate any of my complaints: that it's too complicated/convoluted.

    It just makes it more complex. Coupled with the fact that it puts the LP in the can and not in my wallet is a slam dunk for fail.

    Why would I have my /loyalty points/ put in a can? That goes against the entire premise of LP - that they are an untradable good, and represent services rendered to a specific faction.

    Pressing the "take all" button does not to me sound like a service rendered.

    I still can't figure out how such an idea actually made it this far...

    I read this as the loyalty points are not in the can, they are awarded directly to you.


    This is correct. The LP goes directly to the wallets of each pilot as they get their isk ticks.


    so then all the ess holds is the 20% of the isk that i would have made?


    Yes... the ESS holds the isk you would have potentially earned.

    Imagine you kill a 100m isk in NPC's:
  • With out the ESS, you get 95m isk into your wallet. (i.e. it is still 95% without the ESS).

  • With the ESS, you get 80m into your wallet AND you get 15k-20k Empire Navy LP directly into your wallet. 20-25m isk will be stored in the ESS (to be shared or stolen by any player that accesses it).

    • If you successfully utilize a maxed-benefited ESS (sharing all once you are done): You will get 105m isk and 20k LP put directly into your wallet for every 100m in NPCs you kill.
    Wulfy Johnson
    NorCorp Security
    #1820 - 2014-01-21 16:49:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Wulfy Johnson
    Thank you CCP for tuning into the LP rather than blanket nerf, and adjusting this initial trainwreck this fast.
    It`s looking better now, but still is a bit Meh..

    To make it something useful, you should now play into the farms and field concept and add another deployable which allows the players to attract the rats they want to farm for the option of tuning into the lp they want, without it system attracts less rats..

    Further into the isk sink, as people have said earlier here, station rentable lp stores.

    A combination of this over regional fixed rats (could) if tweaked properly would play nicely into the concept, as 0.0 gets more playerdriven and more options as to what they want to farm and ability to switch out markets to stay competetive towards the meta.

    This will also make the systems more fields like, and the fields is now disturbable by small gangs.

    I.e without the deployables the system produces less total.

    Going this route it will go more from meh, to interresting.. And as a turnout balance out some of the regional problems where envy of sertain rats is a thing, and most important, the ability to switch out what you want to shoot. the boredom of shooting the same rats with the same quality for years.. the boredom..

    But as i have stated earlier in this tread, this should have gone back to the drawingboard.. it has the potential..