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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1761 - 2014-01-21 14:28:12 UTC
Mah Boobz wrote:
Juliette Asanari wrote:
Yeep wrote:
At least with tags you could outsource the shipping for a cut of your profit but with LP you have to fly that exact character all the way into empire and back to claim your reward.


You have heard of Jumpclones?


or pod express.


Cool, so my options are blow my jumpclone timer and not do any ratting or pvp tomorrow or spend 30m+ in clone costs. Sounds reasonable.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1762 - 2014-01-21 14:29:28 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Adding a third form of distribution currency doesn't alleviate any of my complaints: that it's too complicated/convoluted.

It just makes it more complex. Coupled with the fact that it puts the LP in the can and not in my wallet is a slam dunk for fail.

Why would I have my /loyalty points/ put in a can? That goes against the entire premise of LP - that they are an untradable good, and represent services rendered to a specific faction.

Pressing the "take all" button does not to me sound like a service rendered.

I still can't figure out how such an idea actually made it this far...

I read this as the loyalty points are not in the can, they are awarded directly to you.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1763 - 2014-01-21 14:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorn Galen
Dear CCP,

The only real, tangible good that can come from any updates to the ESS module is to get rid of it completely. Admit it is a failure and be done with it. It will be banned from many regions of space. Your precious coding time would be far better utilised fixing existing problems.

My 2c worth.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Ertai Erquilenne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1764 - 2014-01-21 14:31:26 UTC
This seems pretty terrible. Why would I want to drop one of these, when all it does is tell reds flying through system that I'm planning on staying here and that by logging off in system or camping the gates you can catch me?

CCP is ridiculous. You build a gameplay mechanic that requires players to specialize their ships in order to make any money (PvE), then tell people that that style of gameplay isn't good, even though it's one of the few newbie friendly gameplay types. You make it incredibly hard to do, while all of the other things that make people money in game (Moon mining, reaction chains, etc) are extremely skill intensive and contolled by older/wealthier players.

I'm starting to feel like CCP hates the 99%. Give Mittens another coupl hundred R64's, kick the stool out from under the lower classes.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1765 - 2014-01-21 14:31:48 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Adding a third form of distribution currency doesn't alleviate any of my complaints: that it's too complicated/convoluted.

It just makes it more complex. Coupled with the fact that it puts the LP in the can and not in my wallet is a slam dunk for fail.

Why would I have my /loyalty points/ put in a can? That goes against the entire premise of LP - that they are an untradable good, and represent services rendered to a specific faction.

Pressing the "take all" button does not to me sound like a service rendered.

I still can't figure out how such an idea actually made it this far...

I read this as the loyalty points are not in the can, they are awarded directly to you.


This is correct. The LP goes directly to the wallets of each pilot as they get their isk ticks.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#1766 - 2014-01-21 14:32:37 UTC
Neat. I like it!

Please think about a lowsec or Faction warfare ESS.
For example it could take some of the LP form the FW farmers. If they are stepped and don't want to fight, they only get 80% of the original payout. But if they show up and fight they get 110% of the normal payout.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#1767 - 2014-01-21 14:33:03 UTC
So that's the plan huh, just close your eyes and ears for what effects this could have on current LP generation methods.
MinutemanKirk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1768 - 2014-01-21 14:34:01 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:


* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.




WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THIS ON PLEX SITES!?!?!?!?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1769 - 2014-01-21 14:36:44 UTC
Turelus wrote:

More ideas on how to make the ESS great.

Is there any way CCP could allow NullSec entities to rent LP stores for their stations/outposts as well? maybe like a per month office fee to the Navy. It seems a shame that we need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in and it would be a damn amazing update if we could buy our implants in our space.

Given what CCP has said in the past about the horrors involved in coding mission agents into outposts I assume this is technically infeasible especially for a point release.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1770 - 2014-01-21 14:39:46 UTC
Falkor1984 wrote:
Tahnil wrote:

Yeah. But on the other hand there is such a thing as an open market: prices for navy LP items may drop, which in turn may lead to more people buying fancy navy LP stuff (such as Navy Battlecruisers and Navy Battleships), which in turn may lead to higher prices again.


You didnt pay a whole lot of attention in Economics 101 class, did you?


In fact I thought I got it right. Supply and demand. What did I miss? Please enlighten me.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1771 - 2014-01-21 14:40:56 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Turelus wrote:

More ideas on how to make the ESS great.

Is there any way CCP could allow NullSec entities to rent LP stores for their stations/outposts as well? maybe like a per month office fee to the Navy. It seems a shame that we need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in and it would be a damn amazing update if we could buy our implants in our space.

Given what CCP has said in the past about the horrors involved in coding mission agents into outposts I assume this is technically infeasible especially for a point release.

Well it would be more along the lines of a station service rather than an agent but I guess if the code is similar or tied you could be right.
If they want to make the ESS work this would go a long way to making it more desirable though, I can't speak for every NullSec Capsuleer but the ability to buy new implants from an LP store in my home system would be amazing.
Currently I need to go to Empire and either buy or cash in LP then haul/JF implants back home every time I get low on them, less dependants on Empire for a NullSec Alliance is always a good thing.

Still I threw the idea out there would be nice if it can be done! Please CCP... please! *puppy dog eyes* Cry

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#1772 - 2014-01-21 14:40:58 UTC
Supply is already too high, twerp.
Mah Boobz
Doomheim
#1773 - 2014-01-21 14:41:42 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Falkor1984 wrote:
Tahnil wrote:

Yeah. But on the other hand there is such a thing as an open market: prices for navy LP items may drop, which in turn may lead to more people buying fancy navy LP stuff (such as Navy Battlecruisers and Navy Battleships), which in turn may lead to higher prices again.


You didnt pay a whole lot of attention in Economics 101 class, did you?


In fact I thought I got it right. Supply and demand. What did I miss? Please enlighten me.

Simple, demand does NOT get dictated by supply, It's the other way around.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1774 - 2014-01-21 14:42:54 UTC
Turelus wrote:
My thoughts in regards to the LP concerns.

L1-4 Missions: This isn't exactly a bad thing as the community has been asking for nerfs to HighSec ISK for a very long time, having a slight hit in the LP value makes Empire a little less of the ultimate place to make ISK.
Although as I stated in my previous post the real money from LP is currently not with any of the four Empire Navies, Factions like SoE, Thukker etc.

L5 Missions: It does harm these and it would be an idea for CCP to address L5 missions in finding a way to make them valuable again, although saying that FW LP income has already made most L5 missions not greatly viable.


Yep, and this is why I oppose the idea of CCP "developing in a vacuum" . Everything they do affects everything else and sometimes they don't outwardly seem aware of this. Lvl 5s have needed some love for years and this is going to make them a much much worse option.

Quote:

More ideas on how to make the ESS great.

Is there any way CCP could allow NullSec entities to rent LP stores for their stations/outposts as well? maybe like a per month office fee to the Navy. It seems a shame that we need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in and it would be a damn amazing update if we could buy our implants in our space.

Also being Navy LP we miss out on any chance at using the LP to gain Industry Implants, if the above was enabled it would be nice to have an LP store where we had access too all the non-FW LP items.
The only way I see this working would be for CCP to add a new corporation for each Empire (xxxx Navy Requestions Corp.?) where it would have an LP store separate from those in Empire, this would also give CCP room to set the prices of items separate from those in Empire, maybe because we're not directly in the Empire helping they would cost a little more but we would at least have access to them any time.


+1. using existing LP stores is IMO a mistake. If CCP wants to do this they should make up new faction corps with new LP stores.
Mah Boobz
Doomheim
#1775 - 2014-01-21 14:44:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Turelus wrote:
My thoughts in regards to the LP concerns.

L1-4 Missions: This isn't exactly a bad thing as the community has been asking for nerfs to HighSec ISK for a very long time, having a slight hit in the LP value makes Empire a little less of the ultimate place to make ISK.
Although as I stated in my previous post the real money from LP is currently not with any of the four Empire Navies, Factions like SoE, Thukker etc.

L5 Missions: It does harm these and it would be an idea for CCP to address L5 missions in finding a way to make them valuable again, although saying that FW LP income has already made most L5 missions not greatly viable.


Yep, and this is why I oppose the idea of CCP "developing in a vacuum" . Everything they do affects everything else and sometimes they don't outwardly seem aware of this. Lvl 5s have needed some love for years and this is going to make them a much much worse option.

Quote:

More ideas on how to make the ESS great.

Is there any way CCP could allow NullSec entities to rent LP stores for their stations/outposts as well? maybe like a per month office fee to the Navy. It seems a shame that we need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in and it would be a damn amazing update if we could buy our implants in our space.

Also being Navy LP we miss out on any chance at using the LP to gain Industry Implants, if the above was enabled it would be nice to have an LP store where we had access too all the non-FW LP items.
The only way I see this working would be for CCP to add a new corporation for each Empire (xxxx Navy Requestions Corp.?) where it would have an LP store separate from those in Empire, this would also give CCP room to set the prices of items separate from those in Empire, maybe because we're not directly in the Empire helping they would cost a little more but we would at least have access to them any time.


+1. using existing LP stores is IMO a mistake. If CCP wants to do this they should make up new faction corps with new LP stores.


Actually not a bad idea
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1776 - 2014-01-21 14:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Supply is already too high, twerp.


…and…

Mah Boobz wrote:
Simple, demand does NOT get dictated by supply, It's the other way around.


Now listen, I‘m not going to play the economist, cause that‘s not what I am. But it‘s not that simple.

Especially with regards to Navy ships, demand is a variable. In fact I remember that in the past some large nullsec alliances used doctrines involving Navy battleships, and I think one problem was supply. Whenever a large fight went south, they needed to replace a large amount of ships fast. If there is not enough supply, prices rise. Or the doctrine dies.

EVE markets tend to adapt to changes. If nullbears start to grind LP fast, this will lead to more supply, therefore sinking prices. If there is some use for those items, demand will rise. If the utility of those items is limited and there is no mass market, demand will stay low. But even then prices may rise again, because some people will just stop grinding those LP. Because there are better opportunities to get ISK. At this point prices will rise again.

Maybe with introduction of nullsec Navy LP there will be a new price floor for some of the LP items. We will see. But it‘s difficult to tell.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#1777 - 2014-01-21 14:55:46 UTC
Mah Boobz wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Turelus wrote:
My thoughts in regards to the LP concerns.

L1-4 Missions: This isn't exactly a bad thing as the community has been asking for nerfs to HighSec ISK for a very long time, having a slight hit in the LP value makes Empire a little less of the ultimate place to make ISK.
Although as I stated in my previous post the real money from LP is currently not with any of the four Empire Navies, Factions like SoE, Thukker etc.

L5 Missions: It does harm these and it would be an idea for CCP to address L5 missions in finding a way to make them valuable again, although saying that FW LP income has already made most L5 missions not greatly viable.


Yep, and this is why I oppose the idea of CCP "developing in a vacuum" . Everything they do affects everything else and sometimes they don't outwardly seem aware of this. Lvl 5s have needed some love for years and this is going to make them a much much worse option.

Quote:

More ideas on how to make the ESS great.

Is there any way CCP could allow NullSec entities to rent LP stores for their stations/outposts as well? maybe like a per month office fee to the Navy. It seems a shame that we need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in and it would be a damn amazing update if we could buy our implants in our space.

Also being Navy LP we miss out on any chance at using the LP to gain Industry Implants, if the above was enabled it would be nice to have an LP store where we had access too all the non-FW LP items.
The only way I see this working would be for CCP to add a new corporation for each Empire (xxxx Navy Requestions Corp.?) where it would have an LP store separate from those in Empire, this would also give CCP room to set the prices of items separate from those in Empire, maybe because we're not directly in the Empire helping they would cost a little more but we would at least have access to them any time.


+1. using existing LP stores is IMO a mistake. If CCP wants to do this they should make up new faction corps with new LP stores.


Actually not a bad idea

Not going to happen

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1778 - 2014-01-21 14:56:49 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

Additions/edit
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.
* There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.

Also, some of the stats have changed:
* Price lowered from 30 million to 25 million
* Hit points increased from 150k to 250k
* Volume increased from 150 to 200
* Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.
* Activation time increased to 120 seconds, up from 60 seconds

Some of these changes are already out on Sisi, the rest should be there soon. Thank you all for your feedback.




Very nice. All solid and good changes. I cannot think of anything offhand that is left that is too unbalanced.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#1779 - 2014-01-21 14:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Skybound
Here's an idea to "compensate the high sec mission runners".

ESS, rather than being seeded on the market directly, comes from LP stores and requires a minimum standing of 5.0 with the corp to buy it.

Could be made available from all high sec NPC corps (so not pirates/soe) such you could choose whose LP you are getting.

By requiring standing as well as LP it gives a small boon to mission runners as not everyone has 5.0 with every faction.

The LP sink (along with ISK sink) would offset some of the LP generated in this new deployable.

Becomes semi-renewable for the null-bear by means of LP able to buy a new one if the old one gets bust, so long as they had the standing in the first place (used to run missions).

Just a thought.

All else besides, changes seem good. Might suggest making the share time 40 seconds, not 20, as the alt-on-hand can still react fast enough in 20 seconds to most interlopers to the system who'd have to see there's someone there, get there AND stop them in 20 seconds.

Admittedly this is also an alt (thus full account) not otherwise earning money but I don't know if that's enough to warrant leaving the timer at 20 seconds.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1780 - 2014-01-21 15:01:17 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

Additions/edit
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.
* There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.

Also, some of the stats have changed:
* Price lowered from 30 million to 25 million
* Hit points increased from 150k to 250k
* Volume increased from 150 to 200
* Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.
* Activation time increased to 120 seconds, up from 60 seconds

Some of these changes are already out on Sisi, the rest should be there soon. Thank you all for your feedback.




MUCH better