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A message everyone in HED-GP can come together about

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#361 - 2014-01-20 19:44:00 UTC
Net Malone wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
[

What exactly would prevent them from using an un-nerfed power projection in it's currently limitless form to just control all that many more system? The coalition was created out of game to gove over some limitation to the alliance system.



It's very simple - "they", parties involved in blobs, will loose numbers. That will limit coalitions influence. Actually it's coalitions pressure...

Now half of the coalitions member have no way to go. Actual wars are forced to being their "own" wars.

How I know that ? Becouse coalitions are not monolitic - look what happens when cascading is starting: "some" members evacuate. If we have free space to explore then not core corps/aliances will go there. Same as with WH space. They will go and create new corps, new aliances and new coalitions but smaller this time. Ppls will scatter, capitals will scatter and blobs will get smaller.

Sov change is needed to prevent new territoris from being afk-collected (and prevented from habitating) by old coalitions. Here is nerf you want. Or you arguing that current sov mechanic is... OK ? Capitals, oh yes, capitals ! need ! to ! be ! changed !!! ;)

At the moment creation of new aliances senseless - there is no point in that becouse there is nothing new parties can achieve. New parties are insta-borged into current entities. THAT is what require a change.

Quote:

There is nothing stopping them from doing the very same even if SOV was to be held at a corp level.


That's not true. Corporations living long, long from conflict zone will ignore not-their conflicts.

Quote:

As long as people can always go from A to B no matter how far A and B are from each tohers, those large fights will happen because there is no logistical bottleneck making it a risky endeavor. They can come back anyway. If the universe was 2 time as big, it would take them more time but they would still do it.


Excuse me, but you arguing against yourself.

"Endeavor" part grows as range grow. And probability of such massive "comeback" trip falls (with range too). More, it is quite impossible that all forces will be back on some not-anymore-important-for-us timer. You see, you fly to timers to your enemies - usually to your neightbours ;) If that relationship is changed there is no reason to be "back anyway".

And more power on corporation level prevents creating gigantic coalitions, like 3 per whole Universe...

Space is very effective in dividing ppls :) Even mariages brakes thanks to different space and time. Some time in isolation
and there will be no reason to join current coalitions.

[quote}
They do "nothing" for hours on end in soul crushing lag for the "I was there" feeling.


Ah, so Saturday "event" didn't create some negative emotions and some new topics on the forums ? Everybody was happy with engagement results ? Not counting titan pilots, they are alway primared... Maybe check some Eve forum, you will find walls of text with easy...
[/quote]

Your whole prediction is based on the idea that people won't regroup thier new SOV holding corporatin into alliance/coalition in the same they do now. Why would they not do it? Creating more space won't prevent them from doing it. If Goonswarm Federation cares about the war Black Legion is fighting, what makes you think Goonwaffe won't care about Origin.'s war?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#362 - 2014-01-20 19:56:16 UTC
Just to point out, there was a time when corps and alliances were not able to blue eachother. CCP added the ability to add blue and red standing because we were forming coalitions.

So any call to make corps the sov holders and to abolish alliances and blues will not work.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#363 - 2014-01-20 21:36:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Just to point out, there was a time when corps and alliances were not able to blue eachother. CCP added the ability to add blue and red standing because we were forming coalitions.

So any call to make corps the sov holders and to abolish alliances and blues will not work.

Which was arguably a bad idea.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#364 - 2014-01-20 21:44:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

To achieve this, CCP will have to truly radically reduce capital and supercapital movement. I'm talking about changes on the order of a 24 hour cooldown on capital jumps, requiring consumables for gate jumps, burning jump bridges to the ground, eliminating titan bridging and so on.


I have a very serious question:

How exactly do you limit the movement of players throughout space without seriously undermining the current game.

For example: I like small gang warfare, and routinely roam about nullsec looking for fights. This currently involves 20-system trips around Syndicate looking for other gangs to fight many fleet types (frigates to BS's with triage support). This involves 40-system trips through Sov-space, often in frigate & cruiser hulls. Either you changes limit this game-style to be non existent, or an entity like the CFC can use that same fleet comp to move from VFK to highsec, refuel, move to Berta, Refuel, and move to HED-GP. The only thing that changes is they now need two fleets of ships (one in VFK for home defense as insurance, and one in their forward staging base to Blob VFK). Now, supercaps would be inhibited, as pilots are stuck to the ship, but capital pilots just need two dreads/carriers (one in VFK, one in the FOP) to provide the same damage projection they do today.

What I'm trying to get at, is that moving around the universe by standard gate travel is quick and easy in the games current environment, and unless you somehow make it impractical for gatetravel to move from VFK to Jita within a day (28 systems), then large coalitions can ALWAYS move back and forward between opposite sides of the map to defend their Sov.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#365 - 2014-01-20 22:05:07 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

To achieve this, CCP will have to truly radically reduce capital and supercapital movement. I'm talking about changes on the order of a 24 hour cooldown on capital jumps, requiring consumables for gate jumps, burning jump bridges to the ground, eliminating titan bridging and so on.


I have a very serious question:

How exactly do you limit the movement of players throughout space without seriously undermining the current game.

For example: I like small gang warfare, and routinely roam about nullsec looking for fights. This currently involves 20-system trips around Syndicate looking for other gangs to fight many fleet types (frigates to BS's with triage support). This involves 40-system trips through Sov-space, often in frigate & cruiser hulls. Either you changes limit this game-style to be non existent, or an entity like the CFC can use that same fleet comp to move from VFK to highsec, refuel, move to Berta, Refuel, and move to HED-GP. The only thing that changes is they now need two fleets of ships (one in VFK for home defense as insurance, and one in their forward staging base to Blob VFK). Now, supercaps would be inhibited, as pilots are stuck to the ship, but capital pilots just need two dreads/carriers (one in VFK, one in the FOP) to provide the same damage projection they do today.

What I'm trying to get at, is that moving around the universe by standard gate travel is quick and easy in the games current environment, and unless you somehow make it impractical for gatetravel to move from VFK to Jita within a day (28 systems), then large coalitions can ALWAYS move back and forward between opposite sides of the map to defend their Sov.


From UJY-HE in Deklein to Y-1918 in Branch its 1 jump. Without those regional jumps its 60 jumps through low and NPC Venal.

From HB-5L3 in Cobalt Edge to SF-XJS in Tenal its 1 jump, without regional bridges its something like 100 through multiple low, npc space, and non friendly null.

That's a huge difference.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#366 - 2014-01-20 22:20:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

From UJY-HE in Deklein to Y-1918 in Branch its 1 jump. Without those regional jumps its 60 jumps through low and NPC Venal.

From HB-5L3 in Cobalt Edge to SF-XJS in Tenal its 1 jump, without regional bridges its something like 100 through multiple low, npc space, and non friendly null.

That's a huge difference.


So you are suggesting limiting/removing the cross-regional gates?

So you could travel Lonetrek -> Pureblind -> Fade -> Deklein and Lonetreck -> Tribute -> Venal -> Branch, but you couldn't travel Fade to Branch or Deklein to Venal, thereby dramatically increasing the efforts to move to the outer ring of nullsec?

This could be interesting. Although it also means that an invasion into Branch would have penetrate Tribute first, thereby making any Coalition that owns Tribute and Branch only have to defend Tribute to secure all that space. Again, then as long as the majority of combat pilots can fly from their FOB to the Tribute Staging system in a timely fashion, they can go fight where-ever they want.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#367 - 2014-01-20 22:39:27 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

From UJY-HE in Deklein to Y-1918 in Branch its 1 jump. Without those regional jumps its 60 jumps through low and NPC Venal.

From HB-5L3 in Cobalt Edge to SF-XJS in Tenal its 1 jump, without regional bridges its something like 100 through multiple low, npc space, and non friendly null.

That's a huge difference.


So you are suggesting limiting/removing the cross-regional gates?

So you could travel Lonetrek -> Pureblind -> Fade -> Deklein and Lonetreck -> Tribute -> Venal -> Branch, but you couldn't travel Fade to Branch or Deklein to Venal, thereby dramatically increasing the efforts to move to the outer ring of nullsec?

This could be interesting. Although it also means that an invasion into Branch would have penetrate Tribute first, thereby making any Coalition that owns Tribute and Branch only have to defend Tribute to secure all that space. Again, then as long as the majority of combat pilots can fly from their FOB to the Tribute Staging system in a timely fashion, they can go fight where-ever they want.

Yeah. I'm not suggesting it would solve the coalition problem but I think it would help reduce the sizes of coalitions. Why would you form a coalition with someone 60 jumps away. You would likely tend to form them with close neighbors instead.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#368 - 2014-01-20 22:41:30 UTC
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#369 - 2014-01-20 22:44:04 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.


I realize this, and think it adds a unique landscape to nullsec when subcaps can make the movement but capitals cant!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#370 - 2014-01-20 22:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.

Yeah I do but you guys do pretty well with subcaps. If Failcon decided they didn't like you anymore or you decied you wanted new puppets in Branch you could easily squish them with the regional bridges. Which is a very good incentive for Failcon to stay in your coalition.

Without those regional bridges they could tell you to go feck yourself with some decent safety :)


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.


I realize this, and think it adds a unique landscape to nullsec when subcaps can make the movement but capitals cant!

Even the ability to set regional gate standings would help, whoever owns system can set negative standings preventing people individuals, corporations and alliances from using them. If both owners on both sides like each other they could be mutually used. If one group captured both sides they could utilize them freely.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#371 - 2014-01-20 23:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
So basically it's being suggested that capitals become Region Locked (or rather just their jump drives? isn't that the same thing)

Or something similar to that.

Not really sure if it's a good idea or bad tbh - just trying to get to the gist of it.

(if you're suggesting a universal padlock for gates that could stop ANYBODY -- that's a terrible idea)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2014-01-20 23:45:47 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
So basically it's being suggested that capitals become Region Locked (or rather just their jump drives? isn't that the same thing)

Or something similar to that.

Not really sure if it's a good idea or bad tbh - just trying to get to the gist of it.

(if you're suggesting a universal padlock for gates that could stop ANYBODY -- that's a terrible idea)

No they wouldn't be region locked. Personally I liked the game when the regional gates were very rare. I think they added tons more of them to ease the problem with chokes. Only one I remember from eve release was HED-GP and the PB - PS one but I'm sure there were a couple more.

And nah a padlock for gates, just for regional gates based on sov or just get rid of them altogether. Like I said it'd not a solution to everything, and might not even be a solution to anything just a thought :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#373 - 2014-01-20 23:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.

Yeah I do but you guys do pretty well with subcaps. If Failcon decided they didn't like you anymore or you decied you wanted new puppets in Branch you could easily squish them with the regional bridges. Which is a very good incentive for Failcon to stay in your coalition.

Without those regional bridges they could tell you to go feck yourself with some decent safety :)

Who the **** is Failcon? Do you mean FCon? What does this have to do with the Tenal-CE jump?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#374 - 2014-01-21 00:02:24 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Just to point out, there was a time when corps and alliances were not able to blue eachother. CCP added the ability to add blue and red standing because we were forming coalitions.

So any call to make corps the sov holders and to abolish alliances and blues will not work.

Which was arguably a bad idea.


Unironically the only people complaining about standings are the ones with social skills so poor that making friends isn't a viable option.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#375 - 2014-01-21 00:12:36 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.


Maybe, but it is simply a matter of a coder changing one value on a database and suddenly it is in range.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#376 - 2014-01-21 01:31:25 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.


Maybe, but it is simply a matter of a coder changing one value on a database and suddenly it is in range.


And changing a single value in the code would also mean concord never intervene in high sec. A single variable change in the database can make civilian gatling gun do more dps than a sieged moros combined with more alpha than a doomsday on subcap.

See, we can all make stupid statement about how something is just "one single variable away from happening".
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#377 - 2014-01-21 01:34:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.


Maybe, but it is simply a matter of a coder changing one value on a database and suddenly it is in range.

Why would they do that, though? I'm not sure it's quite so simple as that, either.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#378 - 2014-01-21 03:11:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You do realize HB- to SF- is actually too far for capitals to jump. There are many other jumps like that.


Maybe, but it is simply a matter of a coder changing one value on a database and suddenly it is in range.

Why would they do that, though? I'm not sure it's quite so simple as that, either.


Well, on a technical level, I strongly doubt they would hardcode the distance between regions/systems into multiple lines of code. That would break so many rules of coding, I just can't see it happening.

Now, on how it changes the game, that is a non-trivial issue.
But if the concept of altering the capabilities of power projection is being discussed, that in and of itself is non-trivial, so yeah, I think messing with the ranges between regions / systems is certainly a valid discussion.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#379 - 2014-01-21 03:29:47 UTC
Lack of CCP interaction with this thread is telling.
WarFireV
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#380 - 2014-01-21 04:04:50 UTC
They have been keeping pretty hush hush on anything related to HED-GP so far. Don't blame them though, with the reaction they would receive.