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Caldari Navy Invul. instead of Dread Guristas Invul.
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Aluka 7th
#21 - 2014-01-16 11:56:53 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You know what a CNR is, right?


I was thinking they talk about Raven with my half asleep brain... Navy Raven.
Kithran
#22 - 2014-01-16 19:13:39 UTC
Those of you who are pointing out you can _now_ get deadspace invulns are missing the main reason there are still a lot of cal navy invulns found on mission boats - there was a long period when the only options better than t2 were with the dg/cal navy or officer.

If I remember correctly the prices for both were higher back then but I think the cal navy worked out cheaper in isk terms, especially as so many people had cal navy lp the normal conversion rate wasn't that good so it made sense to use your lp to get cal navy invulns for your own use.

Those people who still have them can easily have simply not bothered upgrading since - I know I still have ships fitted with them from that time.
Aluka 7th
#23 - 2014-01-16 19:47:56 UTC
Kithran wrote:
Those of you who are pointing out you can _now_ get deadspace invulns are missing the main reason there are still a lot of cal navy invulns found on mission boats - there was a long period when the only options better than t2 were with the dg/cal navy or officer.

If I remember correctly the prices for both were higher back then but I think the cal navy worked out cheaper in isk terms, especially as so many people had cal navy lp the normal conversion rate wasn't that good so it made sense to use your lp to get cal navy invulns for your own use.

Those people who still have them can easily have simply not bothered upgrading since - I know I still have ships fitted with them from that time.


Ah! Tnx for that angle!
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#24 - 2014-01-16 21:43:45 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Personally I don't understand why people use faction/deadspace tanking mods on level 4 PVE fits all.


tbh i understand it but i dont use it. U can bring a 3 tank domi with deadspace stuff up to the lvl of a 5 slot tanked domi. Faction Missile Launchers are more efficient for mission running and faction damage amps give more damage which would make missions faster. Downside is u run a medium to high risk of suicide ganks singling you out.


Faction missile launchers aren't more efficient. You can't use T2 missiles with it, so less damage. More damage = faster completion time.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-01-20 11:12:11 UTC
Probably the same reason people use CN antimatter charges rather than the identical and cheaper FN antimatter charges.


And yes, faction launchers are more efficient. They are the only faction weapon system that will outdamage the T2 equivalent when using the same ammo.
Sure, using fury missiles will get the T2 paper DPS higher, but the application is worse. The application on precision missiles is higher, but the base dps is lower.
Switching between faction, precision, and fury is inefficient due to the 10 second reloads, so its most efficient to stick with faction launchers and faction ammo.

The reason, as far as I can figure, is CCP fails at math.
going from meta 0--4, faction for turrets is: +0%, +5%, +10%, +15%, +20%, +25% base damage
T2 base damage is basically meta 4 * 1.1 if you have spec to V, ie, +32% compared to the +25% of faction guns


But for missiles,
going from meta 0--4, faction for RF/Domination, faction forCN/DG launchers is: -0%, -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%, -25%, -30% base cycle time
T2 base cycle time is basically meta 4 * 0.9 if you have spec to V, ie, -28% compared to the -30% of DG/CN launchers
0.72/0.7 = 1.02857..... Ie 2.86% more DPS with faction launchers, assuming the same ammo.


#1 the "30%" bonus is too much, no faction gun gets more than that
CN/DG launchers should be nerfed in raw DPS, but become easier to fit

#2 cycle time reductions are too much. A Meta 4 gun does 20% more dps, while a meta 4 launcher does 25% more.
A faction gun does 25% more, while a low grade faction launcher does 33.3% more.
Missile meta progression should go at 4% cycle time/level instead of 5% (much like they did with resist bonuses), so that a meta 4 missile launcher gives the same DPS improvement over meta 0, as with turrets.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-01-20 12:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Probably the same reason people use CN antimatter charges rather than the identical and cheaper FN antimatter charges.


And yes, faction launchers are more efficient. They are the only faction weapon system that will outdamage the T2 equivalent when using the same ammo.
Sure, using fury missiles will get the T2 paper DPS higher, but the application is worse. The application on precision missiles is higher, but the base dps is lower.
Switching between faction, precision, and fury is inefficient due to the 10 second reloads, so its most efficient to stick with faction launchers and faction ammo.

The reason, as far as I can figure, is CCP fails at math.
going from meta 0--4, faction for turrets is: +0%, +5%, +10%, +15%, +20%, +25% base damage
T2 base damage is basically meta 4 * 1.1 if you have spec to V, ie, +32% compared to the +25% of faction guns


But for missiles,
going from meta 0--4, faction for RF/Domination, faction forCN/DG launchers is: -0%, -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%, -25%, -30% base cycle time
T2 base cycle time is basically meta 4 * 0.9 if you have spec to V, ie, -28% compared to the -30% of DG/CN launchers
0.72/0.7 = 1.02857..... Ie 2.86% more DPS with faction launchers, assuming the same ammo.


#1 the "30%" bonus is too much, no faction gun gets more than that
CN/DG launchers should be nerfed in raw DPS, but become easier to fit

#2 cycle time reductions are too much. A Meta 4 gun does 20% more dps, while a meta 4 launcher does 25% more.
A faction gun does 25% more, while a low grade faction launcher does 33.3% more.
Missile meta progression should go at 4% cycle time/level instead of 5% (much like they did with resist bonuses), so that a meta 4 missile launcher gives the same DPS improvement over meta 0, as with turrets.


To get this straight:

You say: Faction launchers are more efficient, because they outperfom T2 launchers while using T1 or Faction ammo, while loosing to T2 when using T2 Ammo.

Hum, I guess I'm about to lol.

T2 Fury can hit proper targets just fine (especially in PvE), and precisions will apply damage significantly better.

Imho, it is nicely balanced between T2 and Faction launchers, just that no sane brain with the choice between both of them would pay the crapton of money for a really marginal increase in DPS while using T1 or Faction. Of course, not everyone in EvE is a sane brain :D
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-01-20 14:25:54 UTC
Faction weapons also make you a gank magnet. Only an idiot would fit them.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#28 - 2014-01-20 15:33:05 UTC
At the time I bought my Caldari invul it was in fact the cheaper of the two.

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Frozen fanfiction
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-01-20 17:24:16 UTC
Yeah, that's the thing: CN units can kinda-sorta be produced in hisec, so their supply is fairly steady, if on the low side, while DG units are almost entirely supplied by faction drops (and maybe Guristas faction LP stores in null), and can vary wildly depending on ratting activity. (Look at the respective prices of two Scorpion-derived hulls, the Scorpion Navy Issue and the Rattlesnake, for an example.)

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Qalix
Long Jump.
#30 - 2014-01-20 17:36:34 UTC
I think a couple of people in this thread didn't get that the OP is questioning the PRICE of CN vs DG invul rather than simply that it be chosen for some other reason. DG is identical and cheaper, so why use CN? There can only be one answer: failure to compare prices and stats. People are used to other games where items don't have such convoluted stats and are grouped by level/power. They're saying to themselves: The fitting guide I found online says CN? Okay, I fit CN, it must be the best of its "level".

I have never, ever had trouble with an L4 or even epic arc missions using a T2 fit and proper range management. Epic arcs can get sketchy without dual boxing, but it is inevitably as a result of poor decision making and attention lapses, which would get you killed with faciton/deadspace mods just as easily. Using T2 cruises and Precision missiles, rigors, and a TP, I wipe out even advanced faction frigates (e.g. arch type angel tacklers) in one or two salvos with zero issues, even point blank. Dual boxing two of these types of ships, I rarely even launch drones unless I'm in an ammo saving mood.

The only time I would use faction/deadspace mods is for one key component (usually the shield booster or prop mod) on the fit. However, ASBs have made that unnecessary and faction prop mods are only something I consider on a T3 fit.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#31 - 2014-01-20 17:58:23 UTC
Answer: Battleclinic
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#32 - 2014-01-20 20:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
It is mostly because people are to lazy to check/not familiar enough with some module groups to know what module got the same stats and often use simply the stuff they see on fittings(what mostly use CN Invus, since it is what most people click on in eft or other fitting programs).

You can save up to 20% of the module value if you take a expensive fitting and and just look for the cheapest alternative or something with similar stats(like gist c or gist b) in Jita. Also the market value of the CN Invu is mostly bound at the tag and lp price what also depends on the demand of this 2 resources for other stuff while the price of the DG Invu depends mostly on drop rates and and how many people do gurista stuff(also to a lesser extend on the price of gist and pith c type invus that offer similar or better values).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-01-20 20:52:44 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Probably the same reason people use CN antimatter charges rather than the identical and cheaper FN antimatter charges.


And yes, faction launchers are more efficient. They are the only faction weapon system that will outdamage the T2 equivalent when using the same ammo.
Sure, using fury missiles will get the T2 paper DPS higher, but the application is worse. The application on precision missiles is higher, but the base dps is lower.
Switching between faction, precision, and fury is inefficient due to the 10 second reloads, so its most efficient to stick with faction launchers and faction ammo.

The reason, as far as I can figure, is CCP fails at math.
going from meta 0--4, faction for turrets is: +0%, +5%, +10%, +15%, +20%, +25% base damage
T2 base damage is basically meta 4 * 1.1 if you have spec to V, ie, +32% compared to the +25% of faction guns


But for missiles,
going from meta 0--4, faction for RF/Domination, faction forCN/DG launchers is: -0%, -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%, -25%, -30% base cycle time
T2 base cycle time is basically meta 4 * 0.9 if you have spec to V, ie, -28% compared to the -30% of DG/CN launchers
0.72/0.7 = 1.02857..... Ie 2.86% more DPS with faction launchers, assuming the same ammo.


#1 the "30%" bonus is too much, no faction gun gets more than that
CN/DG launchers should be nerfed in raw DPS, but become easier to fit

#2 cycle time reductions are too much. A Meta 4 gun does 20% more dps, while a meta 4 launcher does 25% more.
A faction gun does 25% more, while a low grade faction launcher does 33.3% more.
Missile meta progression should go at 4% cycle time/level instead of 5% (much like they did with resist bonuses), so that a meta 4 missile launcher gives the same DPS improvement over meta 0, as with turrets.


To get this straight:

You say: Faction launchers are more efficient, because they outperfom T2 launchers while using T1 or Faction ammo, while loosing to T2 when using T2 Ammo.

Hum, I guess I'm about to lol.

T2 Fury can hit proper targets just fine (especially in PvE), and precisions will apply damage significantly better.

Imho, it is nicely balanced between T2 and Faction launchers, just that no sane brain with the choice between both of them would pay the crapton of money for a really marginal increase in DPS while using T1 or Faction. Of course, not everyone in EvE is a sane brain :D


faction missile launcher (cn) are more efficient than t2. faster cycle bigger ammo capacity and t1 work better on smaller targets which happen to be more common in missions. U are correct that t2 are more efficient against same sized targets because of higher damage with fury.

now to the op
battleclinic or the availability on the market
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-01-20 22:39:59 UTC
Precision have an identical "paper" DPS to T1 (unless I'm mistaken, or you're blowing faction missiles) but far better application.

Besides, a well fit CNR pretty much get most of the damage down on cruisers and up with fury these days.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-01-21 01:50:21 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Precision have an identical "paper" DPS to T1 (unless I'm mistaken, or you're blowing faction missiles) but far better application.

Besides, a well fit CNR pretty much get most of the damage down on cruisers and up with fury these days.


in my experience bc upwards for frigates and cruisers i fared better with t1 missiles but i didnt use precise because they where double the price of fury at the time i tested it
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-01-21 05:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme more Cynos
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Precision have an identical "paper" DPS to T1 (unless I'm mistaken, or you're blowing faction missiles) but far better application.

Besides, a well fit CNR pretty much get most of the damage down on cruisers and up with fury these days.


in my experience bc upwards for frigates and cruisers i fared better with t1 missiles but i didnt use precise because they where double the price of fury at the time i tested it


T2 Fury can oneshot cruisers, T1 can't (on a CNR iirc). That's why faster ROF means ****.

Yes, T1 shoots frigates better, but you can either switch to precision or use drones. No need to shot frigs with fury or T1 at all. Additonaly, You lose a huge chunk of damage when shooting BS. Even with faction. Not efficient at all.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#37 - 2014-01-22 10:56:04 UTC
Another reason for this is that until fairly recently, the two were not actually equivalent IIRC. DG used less cap and had lower resists the last time I looked into it deeply. And by lower, I mean just barely over t2 resists if at all. Saw them alot on ships for people who didn't actually have the skills to fly the ships they were trying to as an incursion FC.

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Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2014-01-24 15:53:43 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:
Maybe trying to do level 4 in tier 2 Tech 1 ship like Raven is problem and not CPU/POWER of ship itself.
I don't expect arbitrator to supply enough CPU/POWER for T2 fit but I do expect it from Curse or Pilgrim.
It is actually by design that Tech 1 ships have hard time fitting T2 modules.


With good skills nd some intelligence Raven is perfectly capable of running just about every level 4 in the game solo with a T2 fit. I only use faction hardeners (not the invuln, just the type-specific ones) for the CPU reduction.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-01-24 17:48:02 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Another reason for this is that until fairly recently, the two were not actually equivalent IIRC. DG used less cap and had lower resists the last time I looked into it deeply. And by lower, I mean just barely over t2 resists if at all. Saw them alot on ships for people who didn't actually have the skills to fly the ships they were trying to as an incursion FC.


It's always fun to see someone go pop because they had a bling fit with no supporting skill at all.
Arec Bardwin
#40 - 2014-01-25 12:48:00 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:
Caldari Navy Invul. instead of Dread Guristas Invul.
Because if you go all out Caldari Navy on your fit you get the secret set bonus.
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