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CCP, fix the sov system already, its state is killing the game

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#21 - 2014-01-20 17:16:14 UTC
Secret Squirrell wrote:
It turns out, its hard to come up with a sov system that reduces blobbing, and that can't just be gamed by the side with more numbers to win even easier. Unfortunately, the proposal here is in the same boat.

One option would be for the defending side to be able to decide which day of the week and at what time they would like to defend their system and then put that into the IHUB timer. Remove the other requirements of the attacking side to attack multiple times. Reinforce, Final battle. Done.

Doesn't solve "massive battle" "issue", but it would help solve the "Eve is really boring when the other guy doesn't show up to fight" issue.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-01-20 18:05:29 UTC
The current over simplified system that brings everyone on system at a predetermined time is broken. Dropping an object on a system to hold it is just bad mechanics.

Something like:

http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/some-ideas-on-eve/an-influence-sovereignty-system/

where you actually have to use the system would be far better than what is in place.

Faction Warfare is using a somewhat similar system.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#23 - 2014-01-20 20:13:12 UTC
I disagree with part of what OP said, and totally disagree with his proposal.

Nulsec sov is worth living in. Otherwise people wouldn't live there. I have lived in nulsec for 4.5 years with occasional vacations.

I agree that episodes like HED-GP suck. Big fleet fights are cool. But having so many players on one node creating so much lag is bad.

The current sov system needs to be scrapped. Why should I have to shoot through 3 multi-million EHP structures to remove someone else's claim to sovereignty? That makes no sense. Only the TCU should make a difference.

Reinforcement timers on their own are fine. They accomplish the task of allowing a defender the time to assemble a defensive team. There is no need for so many structures.

A station is a bastion of EHP and a tool for force projection. But who owns it makes no damn difference to the system sov. Decouple them. I can't see any logical reason for a station to rely on sov, or sov to rely on a station. The same goes for the IHUB.

We should be able to take sov without shooting anything except the TCU. The sov owner should automatically be granted use of the IHUB.

IHUBs should be self-destructible. Stations should be self-destructible. You want our stuff? Suck a fat one. Scorched Earth.

Enemy wants to deny you your industry? They can burn your IHUB or station without touching anything else.

What is the purpose of an SBU? I know how it is used. I just don't understand why it even exists. Get rid of them. Or make them turn off the gate on which they are anchored. That might be cool.

OP's proposal for hacking sov would result in an entire alliance's worth of sov dropping in 5 minutes. Just deploy hackers to every system, click, and no more sov. Bad idea.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Fix Sov
#24 - 2014-01-20 20:33:41 UTC
Secret Squirrell wrote:
As with many "fix sov" ideas, this one doesn't do anything to stop the blob, and in fact makes the blob even stronger.

No, it doesn't make "the blob" stronger, in fact it reduces the strength of "the blob", because if someone decides to massively outblob one system, the other guy can just decide to attack everything else and make progress there instead.

Secret Squirrell wrote:
How so? You have given the defender a choice, spread out your fleets, and get locally blobbed at each timer, and loose them all, or cede timers, and get even fights at a few.

Cost of doing business. There's nothing you can do to stop this from happening, in the current system or in any other system, unless you bring hard caps into play. Hard caps are not going to happen.

Secret Squirrell wrote:
Repeat till they take all but the last of your space, and then we are right back to a tidi, soul crushing lag, blob fight.

Experience shows us that when people realize that they're losing, and losing so badly that there's no hope of winning, they just scarper off. In today's system that can be as little as 1-2 fights (the very final timer of the system), but even in my system (where they can keep their morale up by having some wins and some losses depending on how good their strategist is) they'd failcascade well before we're back to "a tidi, soul crushing lag, blob fight".

Secret Squirrell wrote:
Any attempt to fix sov needs to create a system where having more numbers isn't the ultimate trump card.

My system does punish you for bringing too many to a system, because it means you've left your other systems with a weaker defense. It's a tradeoff you make, and it may work as a gamble, it may not. vOv

Secret Squirrell wrote:
THAT is what causes blobbing, and the ensuant lag. THAT is what causes everyone to blue up and create massive coalitions, because they know that that if they don't, the other guy will, and they will be blobbed to death.

It turns out, its hard to come up with a sov system that reduces blobbing, and that can't just be gamed by the side with more numbers to win even easier. Unfortunately, the proposal here is in the same boat.

No, the cause for today's lag is 2-fold:
1) caps/supercaps fights; these'll probably never go away unless cap travel is nerfed. good luck getting that done (it'll never happen).
2) the final timer syndrome of today's sov system means you have to shove your entire blob into that one system. My system punishes that.

And no, it's not really hard to come up with a system which reduces blobbing, it's just a matter of thinking up something which'll punish you for bringing too much into one system and leaving other systems with insufficient/no defense.

You'll note that I'm not equating "coalitions" to "blobs", because there's nothing wrong with coalitions. In fact, I'm fairly certain that if we were to see a proper coalition vs coalition fight using my sov system, and we got one or more people to write down what they did each day and collected those viewpoints into a cohesive story, that would be a hell of a lot better than what we can possibly manage with today's system.

We had that with the old POS system, in fact someone doing exactly what I just described is what got me into nullsec in the first place, and that's a fucktonne better advertising for CCP than endlessly harping on about "we had 4k people in a single system, and everything lagged to ****" ever could be. In fact, if worst come to worst I'd love to see the return of a modified POS system (either where you took planetary sov by capturing a majority of moons around a planet, then system sov by capturing a majority of planets in a system, or just by skipping POSes and moons and going right for the POCOs and planetary sov), if only we could get those stories back.

I still think my system would be better, because I think it handles timers and requiring forces to be spread out better, but honestly I'd take a lightly modified POS sov system any day over the current dominion sov system.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#25 - 2014-01-20 20:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
did not read all replies, but i'll toss my two isk in...

So.. in my 10 years in eve, let me give some of you a small history lesson on sov warfare:

Back before exodus, there was no sov. No alliances. (not formally) groups of corps would live in an area of space there you could 'conquer' or capture random npc stations (this came in the castor patch[before my time])

prior to exodus, there was no real way to know who owned what. So lots of fights were had by many. you still had blobbing but this was the days before capital ships, and back then you could do lots of drones, a thorax could relatively lunch 10 drones.

When exodus came out, they introduced the Alliance Mechanic, Play Owned Structures (PoS'), Outpost, and i'm 99% sure some of the caps came out then... I always forget what was in exodus and what was in the kali codenamed expansion right after exodus.

Sov was tied into pos'. You needed a single pos in a system to claim sov, and you could claim sov by out spaming your opponent. Thus PoS spamming was formed.

CCP then modified the weight of the pos' so for example, if alliance a had a small pos with sov, and all the moons but one had a small pos, alliance b could come in drop a large pos, and take over. If I remember right the numbers were 1 small = 1, medium = 3 small, large = 3 medium.

Sometime later (I think it was red moon rising or the empyrean age.. expansions tend to blurr) they introduced kinda what the op proposed. It was called 'Constellation Sovernty" It worked like this: If you owned 51% of the constellation systems, AND had 3 outpost in said constellation, you could set one system as the 'capitol'. All structures in this system are immune to conquest. You could not shoot the station or the pos' while that alliance held 51% of the systems. So everyone made super caps in there capitol, and the number of super caps and titans went from a few hundred to thousends, upon thouseds.

To attack the capitol you had to take sov in 51% of the systems, then the capirol become vulnerable, OR you had to take out of the othe other 2 station systems. This made warfare a HUGE *****. And not a lot fo space changed hands easily in this time.

Then with dominion, CCP scrapped that, and gave us what we have today.

In short, your 'idea' was done already, and it sucked. -the hacking part that is.

This has been your "old man in eve rambling about the good ol' days" replay

edit: one more note, in order to take sov in the old system, you either a) spammed or put out more pos' then your opponent, or b) has to bash the overages of pos' in the system you are attacking, so you could spend hours going from one pos and rfing it to the next.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Fix Sov
#26 - 2014-01-20 20:48:47 UTC
Actually, iirc that constellation sov system made every POS etc unattackable within that constellation until you broke the sov4, my idea is just about letting you attack the outer layer and move your way in gradually.

Oh, and to address Soldarius' complaint about dropping all sov in 5 minutes: first of all that's why there's the border system, and second there are timers. There has to be timers because of TZ. And thirdly, taking back a system you've lost shouldn't be as hard as it is in today's system, so if we've got a good war going we'd see the lines move back and forth a fair bit as one side has a good day, then the other side has a good day etc.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-01-20 21:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
generally speaking, there are 3 intrinsic issues with the sovereignty system as it currently stands. (economic concerns aside)

1. its binary, you either control sov or you don't, there is no middle ground and as such the only way to make significant changes are singular titanic battles.

2. its a single system affair, as such there are no tactical or strategic room for real movement and as a result he who arrives first and or/with the most has a significant advantage over the opposition, striking at unexpected locations or from unexpected directions have little to no real use.

3. its hitpoint grind based. as such speed is the primary motivator. so you need more dps... more dps means more ships is better and as there is no diminishing returns people bring MORE ships.

as such, any replacement system would have to consider means which provide either A: diminishing returns for overpopulating in achieving an objective or B: allow the possibility for a smaller force to engage a larger force spread out over a constellation and attempt to defeat "parts of it" in detail.

the most promising proposal coming as of late from the community appears to be the suggestion that control of Sov is spread over multiple systems in a constellation, with mechanics in place to encourage simultaneous attacks/defences across several locations at once. one big suggestion is making use of pre-existing control mechanics such as incursions and faction warfare space to determine the state of the system and remove the reliance on the hitpoint + timer system. i must admit i'm inclined to something along these lines.

however, as Da reaper has mentioned the old system was rather similar to this and that, in turn, proved inefficient. as such, the best course of action may very well be a hybridised system, additionally drawing inspiration from factional warfare and from the incursion system.

economically speaking we have a different kettle of fish, with a somewhat top->down economic system dominating a lot of null sec organisations its unsurprising to find people being dissatisfied with their income.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
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