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Downside of Mobile Tractor Units in missions
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Sar Hobonim
Freighter Building Indy 2012 corp
#1 - 2014-01-19 14:54:36 UTC
When CCP brought in the mobile tractor unit I thought that it would help a great deal in missions.

However I have just experienced the downside.

Mission in 0.7 security system, Safety set to green. Drones set to aggressive. In mission.

In comes another player. Shoots my MTU which causes my drones to aggress him.

Suddenly PVE becomes PVP and I lose my Golem.

Corp member found this link http://themittani.com/features/mission-runners-proclaim-exploit

Has anyone else been hit with this?
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#2 - 2014-01-19 15:12:13 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=308954&find=unread

Some previous discussion on the topic .

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Dyphorus
Inritus Astrum
#3 - 2014-01-19 16:39:00 UTC
Sar Hobonim wrote:
Drones set to aggressive. In mission.


You're mistake, your fault.

This is not new. The agro mechanics were made very clear before they were added to the game. You chose to use something you obviously didn't understand and paid the consequences.

Aside from the fact that this is a known mechanic, you can't glance sideways at the forums without seeing someone else that didn't bother to read up on something new they decided to use. It's everywhere, and you still didn't pay attention.

All the MTU does is encourage people to put their drones on passive and make them manually attack. This has the terrible side effect of making people have actually pay a small bit of attention to the game while running missions, I know it's almost too much to handle.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-01-19 17:08:42 UTC
Dyphorus wrote:
Sar Hobonim wrote:
Drones set to aggressive. In mission.


You're mistake, your fault.

This is not new. The agro mechanics were made very clear before they were added to the game. You chose to use something you obviously didn't understand and paid the consequences.

Aside from the fact that this is a known mechanic, you can't glance sideways at the forums without seeing someone else that didn't bother to read up on something new they decided to use. It's everywhere, and you still didn't pay attention.

All the MTU does is encourage people to put their drones on passive and make them manually attack. This has the terrible side effect of making people have actually pay a small bit of attention to the game while running missions, I know it's almost too much to handle.


Numerous people have been told by GMs it is a bug.

Oops, smartass post seeming less smart?
sabiens
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-01-19 17:53:40 UTC
File a petition and you should get your stuff back.
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-01-19 18:03:44 UTC
hmmm i wonder if some one posting in this thread makes isk using this GM acknowledged bug Blink.

It seems that griefing is getting to be very common now that people can just ignore standing issues (very bad idea imo).

Stay frosty people.

"What you talking about willis"
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#7 - 2014-01-19 19:29:30 UTC
It's a bug and GMs will refund your stuff.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-01-19 19:29:42 UTC
Maxor Swift wrote:
It seems that griefing is getting to be very common now that people can just ignore standing issues (very bad idea imo).


Once again just saying it is so doesn't make it true (maybe people hope by saying it enough times it will become true?).

Nobody yet has shown any correlation to the Tags for security and an increase in griefing. Plus the tags came out almost a year ago and yet its now that these threads are suddenly coming up.

In terms of this issue however, security doesn't even play a part. Shooting someones MTU incurs a suspect timer (much like can flipping used to). A suspect timer does not incur a standings loss. So people can do this form of griefing without losing any sec.


FWIW I think the drone aggression is utter BS and should be a bug that gets fixed ASAP.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#9 - 2014-01-19 21:02:31 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Numerous people have been told by GMs it is a bug.

Oops, smartass post seeming less smart?

Its not a bug. The devs clearly specified that the MTUs would be shootable, give a suspect flag, and no sec hit: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/better-living-through-mobile-structures/. It's even bolded and underlined. Suspects are valid targets and aggressive drones will attack valid targets that have aggressed you (aggressing your MTU is the same as aggressing your ship). This is nothing new.

Just take the drones off aggressive. What's the big deal? Unless, of course, you've been AFK missioning. In which case, tsk tsk tsk.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-01-19 22:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Maybe you should check the 10-11 pager in issues and workaround where even one of the most ardent believers that it was working as intended posted he had been told otherwise. There have been several others posting the same, however I would say James post is probably the weightiest.

Also, passive is bugged. Passive drones don't stay passive on assist.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-01-20 00:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
The biggest problem is only a small percentage of Eve players go to the forms so many don't know about this. I wouldn't call it an exploit since CCP would have fixed it by now but it's just one of the many problems with drones. I don't even bother with MTU's since every griefer is out scanning for them. I'll let them give someone else a bad day.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-01-20 02:05:26 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Numerous people have been told by GMs it is a bug.

Oops, smartass post seeming less smart?


And all we have for that is random people claiming a GM said a thing.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-01-20 02:07:45 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Also, passive is bugged. Passive drones don't stay passive on assist.


Because you have given them the command to assist someone. They will continue to assist until you tell them to stop.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-01-20 02:17:58 UTC
Has any CCP dev made a comment on this issue? If so can someone please post.

My recommendation is just don't use them. You can loot and salvage with the Noctis.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#15 - 2014-01-20 02:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Sar Hobonim wrote:
Safety set to green.


Safety=green doesn't mean no PVP. The safety exists to keep you from ending up on the wrong side of crimewatch. Legal targets (such as someone who shoots your MTU) will always be shootable regardless of the setting of your safety.

This is not a bug with the safety. Or particularly a bug with drones. When someone intrudes on your mission, its a good idea to scoop em or set them passive.

What did you get attacked by that was able to kill your golem?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-01-20 08:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Also, passive is bugged. Passive drones don't stay passive on assist.


Because you have given them the command to assist someone. They will continue to assist until you tell them to stop.


That's the point, the person being assisted has stopped firing. The drones do not. Try it.

Unless you're saying they should continue to free-fire...in which case....on what targets, why and why then is there a guard setting at all? Why wont they engage immediately on the assist command but they need the person to open fire - but continue to free fire after that first target is down and the person being assisted has stopped shooting?
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2014-01-20 09:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: suid0
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Dyphorus wrote:
Sar Hobonim wrote:
Drones set to aggressive. In mission.


You're mistake, your fault.

This is not new. The agro mechanics were made very clear before they were added to the game. You chose to use something you obviously didn't understand and paid the consequences.

Aside from the fact that this is a known mechanic, you can't glance sideways at the forums without seeing someone else that didn't bother to read up on something new they decided to use. It's everywhere, and you still didn't pay attention.

All the MTU does is encourage people to put their drones on passive and make them manually attack. This has the terrible side effect of making people have actually pay a small bit of attention to the game while running missions, I know it's almost too much to handle.


Numerous people have been told by GMs it is a bug.

Oops, smartass post seeming less smart?


tbh I'd ignore Morrigan LeSantes' response as they appear to have no idea themselves.

While I'm not arguing that GM's may be saying that, if they are I can't help but feel they are wrong in saying so and poorly trained.

From the devblog on the safety system: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73996

Quote:

Your new safety system has three states: enabled, partially disabled and disabled.

  • While ENABLED, you cannot commit any kind of illegal act
  • While PARTIALLY DISABLED, you can commit acts that will get you a suspect flag, but not those that would get you a criminal flag
  • While DISABLED, you can do anything you like, up to and including criminal acts



There appears to be a misunderstanding between noobs and players about what the colours actually mean and general aggression mechanics.

Green does not mean it will stop you attacking other players. You can be in null sec and leave it green and you can still shoot people without it stopping you like it would in hi-sec. It is not a 'stop me shooting another player button'

What it does mean is in hi-sec it will stop you doing any action that would flag you as a criminal (and thus get concorded)

Yellow, stops you doing stupid things that would flag you criminal, but still allows you do to things that flag you suspect.

Red is off, you can flag suspect or go criminal and get concorded.

Now, the bit you are all failing to understand is, by shooting the MTU the hostile player flagged as suspect.

Shooting a suspect will flag you into a limited engagement with the suspect.

THIS IS NOT A CRIMINAL ACT, nor will it flag you as suspect. This is why when your safey is green it isn't preventing the drones from engaging. By attacking the MTU they're technically attacking you, thus the drones auto attack (because you are stupid and told them to by setting them aggressive.)

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-01-20 09:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
/shrug

All I can go on is the fact the thread was moved to issues and workarounds, there have been numerous reimburses, several people (even people in favour of it) have had GM responses saying it is bugged (what is interesting is no-one, to my knowledge, has been told it is working as intended). These lend weight to it not working as intended, to my mind at least.

Personally, my opinion was and still is that it was an unforeseen/unintended consequence of the change, the drone AI is too flaky to be reliable in conjunction with a MTU ('passive' or not). I think the overall effects are well within the spirit of EVE but the particular implementation feels a bit iffy. I may be wrong and yes the evidence is anecdotal - but there's a lot of it and not a lot against it.

Also, it has nothing, nothing to do with the safety system - I've no idea why people think it does.

In the end, I don't suppose I really care much, I don't use the units, too slow Smile
Treborr MintingtonJr
S.N.O.T
S.N.O.T.
#19 - 2014-01-20 10:10:49 UTC
The real downside is when it tractors empty wrecks and you're like screw this I'm flying to all the battleship wrecks myself.

If only you could configure it.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-01-20 10:36:40 UTC
This is a very bad feature.

Shooting a wreck = get concordokkened,
Shooting a functioning structure owned by someone = concord continues eating doughnuts.

Drones set to aggressive does not mean AFK, I used to use them on aggressive in missions with heavy E-war.
Sort of like switching to FOF missiles... btw I assume this same thing can happen with FOF missiles now?

Before, no one could aggress you if you didn't commit illegal acts, without concord intervening.
Now they can, and the mechanics for "autotargetting" drones and missiles can get you into limited engagements without "doing anything" to cause it.

Yes, by now, players should be aware.

But that doesn't mean that the bad feature is not bad.
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