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A message everyone in HED-GP can come together about

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Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#261 - 2014-01-19 20:23:33 UTC
but I'm Malcanis' number one fan! not some burnt out messageboard poster


loljk I'm tgr
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#262 - 2014-01-19 20:23:34 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Can you give some examples of what these "micro level" changes would be? because it sounds like you're decribing a new sov system, and that sounds even more macro than a combined jumpclone/bridge/cyno jump timer pool.


Reduce the amount of timers needed to take a system. There would be more do-or-die timers, more than likely there would be more than one coming out at once.


Reduce the EHP on sov structures so that a smaller gang can go through the timer quicker.
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#263 - 2014-01-19 20:24:20 UTC
reduce the number of conquerable systems to encompass all of Providence and nothing else, problem solved.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#264 - 2014-01-19 20:25:04 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Can you give some examples of what these "micro level" changes would be? because it sounds like you're decribing a new sov system, and that sounds even more macro than a combined jumpclone/bridge/cyno jump timer pool.


Reduce the amount of timers needed to take a system. There would be more do-or-die timers, more than likely there would be more than one coming out at once.


I'm not suggest adding FW plexes to the nullsec sov game, but I'd like to point out some very strong points that Plexes offer:

1.) An individual can make a difference in the flipping of a system. The FW plexes are small scale objectives that can escalate but fundamentally my be completed by a solo pilot.

2.) They are time sensitive. The opposing side only has a limited amount of time to stop you from completing the objective. The limited opportunity to response limits the size of the response.

3.) There are multiple objectives available in a single system. This has the effect of forcing pilots to spread out to maximize their efforts, creating weak points and strong points of attack.

A sov system with distributed small scale objectives would go a long way reducing the 4k man battlefields (which I don't think is something CCP actually wants to achieve).
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#265 - 2014-01-19 20:26:31 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


I'm not suggest adding FW plexes to the nullsec sov game, but I'd like to point out some very strong points that Plexes offer:

1.) An individual can make a difference in the flipping of a system. The FW plexes are small scale objectives that can escalate but fundamentally my be completed by a solo pilot.

2.) They are time sensitive. The opposing side only has a limited amount of time to stop you from completing the objective. The limited opportunity to response limits the size of the response.

3.) There are multiple objectives available in a single system. This has the effect of forcing pilots to spread out to maximize their efforts, creating weak points and strong points of attack.

A sov system with distributed small scale objectives would go a long way reducing the 4k man battlefields (which I don't think is something CCP actually wants to achieve).



because 5 people in stabbed bombers taking all of CFC's sov will work as intended.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#266 - 2014-01-19 20:30:57 UTC
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


I'm not suggest adding FW plexes to the nullsec sov game, but I'd like to point out some very strong points that Plexes offer:

1.) An individual can make a difference in the flipping of a system. The FW plexes are small scale objectives that can escalate but fundamentally my be completed by a solo pilot.

2.) They are time sensitive. The opposing side only has a limited amount of time to stop you from completing the objective. The limited opportunity to response limits the size of the response.

3.) There are multiple objectives available in a single system. This has the effect of forcing pilots to spread out to maximize their efforts, creating weak points and strong points of attack.

A sov system with distributed small scale objectives would go a long way reducing the 4k man battlefields (which I don't think is something CCP actually wants to achieve).



because 5 people in stabbed bombers taking all of CFC's sov will work as intended.


Perhaps these objectives needs to have a 50km warp bubble around it, where cloaks & cyno's don't function either either...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#267 - 2014-01-19 20:37:22 UTC
This really is the answer to the problem:

We need to implement a mechanic that gets people back OUT of system.

Quote:

Off the cuff example:
A new AOE mechanic that teleports everyone on grid randomly into other systems within the constellation.
--- This could from a player driven device that causes it
-- This could be a "feature" of space destabilizing because (insert lore) and the server automatically implements this anytime the server load exceeds some threshold from some time period.

Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#268 - 2014-01-19 20:39:56 UTC
holy hell you're special Gizznitt.
Molenius Morrowinger
Doomheim
#269 - 2014-01-19 20:40:09 UTC
Blob can be reduced by adding some RL implications when there are too many ships on the grid:
1. which adds alot of radiowave noise which cause slower lock time because of the signal interference. Same can be applied to drones sine the all frequency channels are used which adds "lag" in operating them due to the noise in signal.
2. AOE ship explosions can damage ships nearby. Bigger ship = more damage, I know it adds more load on the server but not more than single bomb explosion,
3. Bridg jump should cost fuel. Bigger ship = more energy = more fuel. Not sure if there is already cap on the titan on how many ships can be jumped. Tital jump drive must be overheated after using certain amount of energy thus disabled for some time to cool itself down.
4. More ships on the grid less chance to hit on the enemy. It is not necessary to calculate line of sight for the each ship (although it would be awesome), just reduce damage depending on the number of ships on the grid. I.e. some static debuff applied when grid becomes overcrowded.

Not silver bullet, but can reduce the number of ships coming on grid.
Saying this SOV system needs to be fixed. There should be multiple battles happening in the constellations in order to take the control. There are already alot of suggestions for this so I'll not iterate.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#270 - 2014-01-19 20:40:49 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
This really is the answer to the problem:

We need to implement a mechanic that gets people back OUT of system.

Quote:

Off the cuff example:
A new AOE mechanic that teleports everyone on grid randomly into other systems within the constellation.
--- This could from a player driven device that causes it
-- This could be a "feature" of space destabilizing because (insert lore) and the server automatically implements this anytime the server load exceeds some threshold from some time period.


Hmmmm... let me think about that one...
Net Malone
Perkone
Caldari State
#271 - 2014-01-19 20:44:43 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The solution to this is something that not many of you are going to like the sound of.


The only possible effective solution is to effectively enforce that space-honoure agreement and radically reduce power projection so that if eg: the CFC are deploying a fleet in Catch, the same fleet is physically unable to defend a timer in Branch. Thus any far-flung power bloc which attempts to project power on this side of the map must necessarily reduce it's ability to do so on that side. That is the only way that bloc level powers will voluntarily limit the size of the fleets that they deploy: by making it in their own interest.


Yea, why only one battlefield per day ? BL was waiting 5 hours. IMO they should go north and grind something there :)


Quote:

To achieve this, CCP will have to truly radically reduce capital and supercapital movement. I'm talking about changes on the order of a 24 hour cooldown on capital jumps, requiring consumables for gate jumps, burning jump bridges to the ground, eliminating titan bridging and so on.


HANDS OFF ORDINAR PLAYERS TOYS !!!

Coalitions - you see, there is no skill to form coalitions - are the problem. You need to postpone forming such monsters for few years. What players fly _is not a problem_. CCP need/wants to destroy source of blobs.

You see, technetium was a good idea - one valuable resource to fight for owning mines. But idea don't catched becouse of NIPs or maybe too powerfull blocks. Problem is political.

You see, you probably forgot, ordinar player is useless, rightless and helpless entity in this game.

You want with small bunch of friends to own some system ? You can't. Ah right... You can rent a system... What destroys players game experience ? Massive coalitions.

You found beautifull system far, far from HS, no one is realy using it becouse it is -0.2 or something. You want to grind, for example, custom offices. But you can't ! Why ? Becouse someone from other side of Universe do not allow you... And no, transportation problem is secondary or tertiaty here. Primary problem is: someone from other side of Universe should not be even concerned what is happening @ other side !

So, real problem is: actions of single player have no value - sov system prevent it.



Quote:

Are you, the inhabitants of 0.0 ready to accept such a radical change in your 0.0 lifestyle?


NO !


Quote:

Most of 0.0 lives in blocs, and this would be a titanic nerf to blocs.


YES !

Quote:

If not, then fine, but don't complain about what happens when 4000 people have a capital battle in a single system.

If you are then tell me so loud and clear right now, and that's the message I'll take to Iceland on Tuesday.


Are you CCP PR specialist now ? You should be on players side or I am wrong ? You just blakmailing community !

4k blob is CCP problem, they create situation that ONLY WAY to defend yourself is by forming big-number-fleets.


But there is easy way to resolve situation: make map bigger x3, x4 or x12 ! Ppls will scatter, blobs will get smaller. And managing empty system should be easy enought and CPU friendly.

"Rubicon" ? "No turning back" ? Burning bridges ? Maybe CCP is going down ? But if not, then, please, do something for ordinary player. Tip: ppls play games to achieve something... Actually, on so many levels, players are so poor and helpless drones...

Btw. dear CCP, you wrote ESS is "CSM contribution"... Could you give us a names of that unwise CSM members ? If you want to be honest could you give us what they REALY proposed too ? I asking becouse it is... umm... little useless. IMO, of course.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#272 - 2014-01-19 20:47:02 UTC
Trying to limit a player from getting somewhere is dangerous, but there is things that can be done to dictate what they bring and how fast they bring it. That is where it would become more strategic. Everyone should refer to the production triangle.

  • Good
  • Cheap
  • Fast

Pick two.

Of course right now we get to pick all three and sometimes add a fourth for good measure...
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#273 - 2014-01-19 20:49:41 UTC
Net Malone wrote:
But there is easy way to resolve situation: make map bigger x3, x4 or x12 ! Ppls will scatter, blobs will get smaller. And managing empty system should be easy enought and CPU friendly.

You do realize that nerfing power projection by a factor of x3, x4 or x12 would achieve the exact same thing without having to increase the number of systems in the game right? Blink
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#274 - 2014-01-19 20:52:00 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
This really is the answer to the problem:

We need to implement a mechanic that gets people back OUT of system.

Quote:

Off the cuff example:
A new AOE mechanic that teleports everyone on grid randomly into other systems within the constellation.
--- This could from a player driven device that causes it
-- This could be a "feature" of space destabilizing because (insert lore) and the server automatically implements this anytime the server load exceeds some threshold from some time period.


Hmmmm... let me think about that one...


I understand the off the cuff example has flaws, but the general point is still the same.

The server cannot handle everything we throw at it and there Already EXISTS a cap on how many pilots can function within a system. Just because this cap is server-determined, doesn't alter the fact that there still exists a cap (and there ALWAYS will be). Our options are deal with the traffic jam and the node crashes and the lag (accepting it as part of our game play), or find a means to move people out of system when they overcrowd it.

If you leave the people already in system there, you create a race on "how can fill up the system first". So you need another means to decide who stays and who goes. You also need a system that moves them along in a fair manner. Otherwise nothing gets solved, and its 4000 on todays hardware, and 6000 on tomorrows hardware, but we will still keep hitting limits and we'll still be in the same mess.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2014-01-19 20:53:10 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Net Malone wrote:
But there is easy way to resolve situation: make map bigger x3, x4 or x12 ! Ppls will scatter, blobs will get smaller. And managing empty system should be easy enought and CPU friendly.

You do realize that nerfing power projection by a factor of x3, x4 or x12 would achieve the exact same thing without having to increase the number of systems in the game right? Blink

It wouldn't get rid of the blocs though. It wouldn't get rid of the 4000 man fights either.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#276 - 2014-01-19 20:56:22 UTC
1. Distribute timers to multiple focus points in multiple systems. So ‘the timer’ actually becomes several spatially distinct targets.
2. Nerf projection (timers, fuel, range pool, whatever). This will make controlling vast areas of space more difficult and give the local force an advantage.
3. Add lots of new space (queue player-built stargates) to dilute the current blocs. In conjunction with projection nerfs this will make coalitions less viable.

The risk of above is that null would stagnate with alliances only concerned about their home systems.

4. Make truesec dynamic. Think of it as ‘resource depletion’ and ‘resource growth’.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#277 - 2014-01-19 20:58:02 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Net Malone wrote:
But there is easy way to resolve situation: make map bigger x3, x4 or x12 ! Ppls will scatter, blobs will get smaller. And managing empty system should be easy enought and CPU friendly.

You do realize that nerfing power projection by a factor of x3, x4 or x12 would achieve the exact same thing without having to increase the number of systems in the game right? Blink

It wouldn't get rid of the blocs though. It wouldn't get rid of the 4000 man fights either.

Why be part of a bloc if you can't get help them defend or attack something on the other side of the game? Why send everyone and everything if that means that by the time you came back home, it had been pillaged and burned to the ground?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#278 - 2014-01-19 21:07:54 UTC
Zappity wrote:
1. Distribute timers to multiple focus points in multiple systems. So ‘the timer’ actually becomes several spatially distinct targets.
2. Nerf projection (timers, fuel, range pool, whatever). This will make controlling vast areas of space more difficult and give the local force an advantage.
3. Add lots of new space (queue player-built stargates) to dilute the current blocs. In conjunction with projection nerfs this will make coalitions less viable.

The risk of above is that null would stagnate with alliances only concerned about their home systems.

4. Make truesec dynamic. Think of it as ‘resource depletion’ and ‘resource growth’.

1, 2 will be good. 3 will just end up being what we have now, power blocs dropping TCU's all over and claiming huge areas to rent out.

To truly break up the blocs you need to remove the threat that causes them. Take FCON up in branch, even though they're technically far far away in the top right corner of the map, the regional in UJY-HE and DKUK-G puts them 10 minutes or less from subcap fleets out of VFK and surrounds. Likewise for Razor in Tenal, the HB-5L3 regional jump to SF-XJS puts the Drone region forces a few minutes subcap run from their space, and the Drone regions are physically further from Tenal than Fountain is...

Tenal, Branch and Venal were they not linked to far away regions by regional jumps should be one distinct smaller powerbloc not a member of a bloc that reaches from Tenal to Paragon Soul.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#279 - 2014-01-19 21:11:01 UTC
But how would a bloc enforce an even vaster renter empire without projection?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2014-01-19 21:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Zappity wrote:
But how would a bloc enforce an even vaster renter empire without projection?

I'm not saying its not a good idea but it'll be circumvented by using multiple fleets. The bigger the coalition, the more fleets they can afford to have. Wouldn't even need to be functionally superior fleets aimed at winning either. Just enough throw away battleships and other subcaps to make the node terribad enough to stall until your timers reset to jump your caps up.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)