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CCP, fix the sov system already, its state is killing the game

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Author
Fix Sov
#1 - 2014-01-19 15:30:58 UTC
There are 3 major issues in nullsec right now:
1) It's not worth living in, so most nullsec people have hisec/lowsec alts for moneymaking or production etc
2) Caps/supercaps are bringing a ton of **** along with them in the manner in which they're being used today, which is leading to node-breaking fights, and they can be rapidly brought across the eve universe while the fight which began as a smallish cap fight is in tidi (see: asakai)
3) The sov system isn't just encouraging node-breaking fights, it's basically mandating it (barring a space honourueable agreement of honoure between space steed leaders).

However, I'm not going to address the first two, because those are better served by someone else tackling them. However, I will address the 3rd.

Fights in today's sov system are huge, epic, contains vast resources on all sides, and aren't as much fun as they could've been. They also lack a lot of strategy, we're talking about being back at the stage where we're trying to get there first, fill the system with people, and hope the other guy is having issues getting in. We would benefit from a sov system which, while

So the problems of today's sov system are as follows:
- has a lot of timers which are optional to defend, but mandatory to attack (only the final timer is really mandatory)
- winning a single fight enables the defender to reset all progress, while the attacker must win all fights
- numbers on each side are continually escalating, with little end in sight, as the universe coalesces into fewer and fewer coalitions

Features I'd like to see in a sov system:
- A limit to how far into someone's sov you can go and make claims (i.e. border systems can be captured, but you can't capture systems x jumps from the border before you've moved the border)
- Single structure is used for claiming sov (a Sov Claim Unit as it were)
- It is captured by hacking
- It is defended by counter-hacking or by blowing up the hacker(s)
- First hack sends it into reinforcement mode, second captures it.
- Should be easily transferrable from corp to corp, including corps which are in different alliances
- Capture/defense timers should be number-independent (i.e. it shouldn't go quicker just because you bring more people)
- Capture/defense timers which aren't defended in any way should go quickly (like, say, 5 minutes)
- Capture/defense timers which are defended should either tick down very slowly if there are more hackers than counter-hackers and tick up if there are more counter-hackers than hackers, or not tick up or down at all while there are defenders counter-hacking
- Timers should be coordinated so timers across multiple systems will come out at exactly the same time, forcing both attacker and defender to decide upon a strategy for how to split their forces up depending on defense/reserve/attack, try to guess where the various fleets will be in which strength, how much is in reserve etc
- Timers should expire within a reasonably long period of time after coming out of reinforcement (like, say, an hour)

In short, the system should encourage the use of an actual strategy, split his forces up and parcel them out in a smart manner beyond just going "hurr create timers in all the systems with bombers then hurr derp all the people into system x for its final timer to win", it should support some back and forth fighting (where systems are taken and lost regularly if both sides are reasonably evenly matched), and where there should be possibilities of, if not constant then at least more frequent, and smaller fights which will not kill the node.

CCP: some of us have been telling you this for years, what do we have to do to get this? Shoot a structure outside of Jita for a few weeks straight?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-01-19 15:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Fix Sov wrote:
So the problems of today's sov system are as follows:
- has a lot of timers which are optional to defend, but mandatory to attack (only the final timer is really mandatory)
- winning a single fight enables the defender to reset all progress, while the attacker must win all fights
- numbers on each side are continually escalating, with little end in sight, as the universe coalesces into fewer and fewer coalitions

I disagree. What you refer to as "optional" timers gives the defenders a reasonable opportunity to defend their space. Having the ability to defend your space is a big incentive in going out there and building your empire. Without this ability null would probably just be a bunch of roaming gangs facing each other, which is fun for the roaming gangs, but not so much for anyone else looking to settle there. I strongly believe that the defenders should have the advantage.

With that said, I'll also add that in my opinion, the problem is more in that alliances are able to hold more space than what they are able to defend. So what I'd try and tackle is for a way to minimize what little influence they are able to project on space they have little interaction with.

In other words, keep the ability to defend the space you are actively using. Some how reduce alliances' ability to keep that edge in space they are not actively using. How? I don't know. And that's where I think the problem is... Again, in my opinion.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#3 - 2014-01-19 15:48:14 UTC
Oh, Hello there!

I can see you're not a CSM member, nor a large Nullsec Alliance leader, neither are you a popular blogger...

Don't be too disappointed when this thread is locked and you're told to take it to F&I to be ~properly~ ignored...

...

Sakaron Hefdover
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-01-19 15:49:12 UTC
The defenders have the advantage because they can plan for this. We need to reduce the scale of the fight.

Reducing the time required may help in that less people can plan for the fight and thus a smaller scale fight
Fix Sov
#5 - 2014-01-19 15:50:24 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
So the problems of today's sov system are as follows:
- has a lot of timers which are optional to defend, but mandatory to attack (only the final timer is really mandatory)
- winning a single fight enables the defender to reset all progress, while the attacker must win all fights
- numbers on each side are continually escalating, with little end in sight, as the universe coalesces into fewer and fewer coalitions

I disagree. What you refer to as "optional" timers gives the defenders a reasonable opportunity to defend their space. Having the ability to defend your space is a big incentive in going out there and building your empire. Without this ability null would probably just be a bunch of roaming gangs facing each other, which is fun for the roaming gangs, but not so much for anyone else looking to settle there. I strongly believe that the defenders should have the advantage.

The reason I'm saying they're optional timers is that with the way wars are fought these days, the attacker has to grind through all of them, but the defender can easily punt those timers all the way until the final timer, which means we might almost as well just say "yeah you know that system you just reinforced? come back in a week. Oh, and bring all your friends, we'll make it a 2kv2k slugfest, the node'll grind to a halt and it'll be awesome."

Yes, there are the occasional defense of the timers prior to the final timer, but they're not as common as they should've been.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Jamagh
Grand Violations
#6 - 2014-01-19 16:22:20 UTC
Having spent all of my time prior to a few months ago living in hisec, I have to say being in null is MUCH more rewarding. Not only are the bounties on rats higher, but there is more ore for me to mine, as well as I have corp mates, and alliance members around me.

"Please stop reopening silly rumor threads."  CCP Navigator.

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#7 - 2014-01-19 16:47:57 UTC
Sakaron Hefdover wrote:
Reducing the time required may help in that less people can plan for the fight and thus a smaller scale fight

This is a fine example of bullshit...

Both sides, regardless of how much time they have, will ALWAYS try to out blob the other...

...

AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#8 - 2014-01-19 19:26:45 UTC
Too busy making ESS a reality.
Next?
Fix Sov
#9 - 2014-01-19 19:31:49 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Sakaron Hefdover wrote:
Reducing the time required may help in that less people can plan for the fight and thus a smaller scale fight

This is a fine example of bullshit...

Both sides, regardless of how much time they have, will ALWAYS try to out blob the other...

The only way you can get rid of the idea of "outblobbing the other guy" is if you put strict limits on what you can bring, which means there's only the pilots' skill at piloting which determines the outcome. This is not going to be an aim of anyone.

The only thing we can ever try to aim for, is to reduce the size of the blobs when they do smash together, hence the idea of multiple timers coming out at the same time, and the focus being on getting a fight on as many of those timers at the same time as possible, because then the blobs will limit themselves organically.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#10 - 2014-01-19 19:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Azami Nevinyrall
Fix Sov wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Sakaron Hefdover wrote:
Reducing the time required may help in that less people can plan for the fight and thus a smaller scale fight

This is a fine example of bullshit...

Both sides, regardless of how much time they have, will ALWAYS try to out blob the other...

The only way you can get rid of the idea of "outblobbing the other guy" is if you put strict limits on what you can bring, which means there's only the pilots' skill at piloting which determines the outcome. This is not going to be an aim of anyone.

Doing this KILLS the sandbox...

And FW is that way --------->

...

Fix Sov
#11 - 2014-01-19 19:47:15 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Doing this KILLS the sandbox...

How?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#12 - 2014-01-19 20:03:14 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Doing this KILLS the sandbox...

How?

Putting limits on players and their ships.

FYI, sandbox games allow ANYONE to do ANYTHING they want to. So if RvB wants to show up to a 2500 Capital orgy they can!

Restrictions of any kind kills the sandbox!

...

Fix Sov
#13 - 2014-01-19 20:07:36 UTC
So did you miss the part where I said "this is not going to be the aim of anyone" and talked about how blobs would limit themselves organically (i.e. not through CCP putting an actual cap on anything)?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Stabdealer Tichim
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-01-19 20:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Stabdealer Tichim
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

Putting limits on players and their ships.

FYI, sandbox games allow ANYONE to do ANYTHING they want to. So if RvB wants to show up to a 2500 Capital orgy they can!

Restrictions of any kind kills the sandbox!


Stop your lie about "Sandbox". We know there is always a limit on player amount due to technique bottleneck, CCP refused to admit it, and therefore introduced those sh*t "big fights" that will exactly kill the game.


I can't agree with OP's native and narrowly aligned idea, but I have to say that the current sov system is far from ideal. There are always many people propagate "the current sov system is fine(not too bad etc.)" before each point that sov rules changed, and fortunately the changes never not to came due to these "easy-going" people.
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#15 - 2014-01-20 05:12:14 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Doing this KILLS the sandbox...

How?

Putting limits on players and their ships.

FYI, sandbox games allow ANYONE to do ANYTHING they want to. So if RvB wants to show up to a 2500 Capital orgy they can!

Restrictions of any kind kills the sandbox!




I still can't get my capitals in High Sec...


I agree with you, but CCP already limits Sandbox play.

Solutions are needed and all considerations should be discussed in depth, not rejected outright.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#16 - 2014-01-20 05:14:33 UTC
I love how big fights that end badly always equal broken sov threads in GD.






Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Kryptik Kai
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2014-01-20 05:19:57 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
I love how big fights that end badly always equal broken sov threads in GD.


Its a change of pace from the ESS cry threads. Gotta keep it fresh.

"Shiny.  Lets be bad guys." -Jayne Cobb

ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#18 - 2014-01-20 15:53:53 UTC
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

Signal11th
#19 - 2014-01-20 16:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Sakaron Hefdover wrote:
Reducing the time required may help in that less people can plan for the fight and thus a smaller scale fight

This is a fine example of bullshit...

Both sides, regardless of how much time they have, will ALWAYS try to out blob the other...

The only way you can get rid of the idea of "outblobbing the other guy" is if you put strict limits on what you can bring, which means there's only the pilots' skill at piloting which determines the outcome. This is not going to be an aim of anyone.

Doing this KILLS the sandbox...

And FW is that way --------->



You seem to be under the illusion that EVE is a sandbox? I suppose you can't remember a single time when a group of players figured out something to their benefit which was then zapped by CCP........

Those chaps who figured out getting negative on targeting then actually gave you full damage at distance, Titan tracking.... Whoops some Dev accidently allowed the Isk Special Edition shirt in the shop for 500 arum humm I wonder who benefitted from that in game.....

The sandbox is altered all the time.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#20 - 2014-01-20 16:56:21 UTC
As with many "fix sov" ideas, this one doesn't do anything to stop the blob, and in fact makes the blob even stronger. How so? You have given the defender a choice, spread out your fleets, and get locally blobbed at each timer, and loose them all, or cede timers, and get even fights at a few. Repeat till they take all but the last of your space, and then we are right back to a tidi, soul crushing lag, blob fight.

Any attempt to fix sov needs to create a system where having more numbers isn't the ultimate trump card. THAT is what causes blobbing, and the ensuant lag. THAT is what causes everyone to blue up and create massive coalitions, because they know that that if they don't, the other guy will, and they will be blobbed to death.

It turns out, its hard to come up with a sov system that reduces blobbing, and that can't just be gamed by the side with more numbers to win even easier. Unfortunately, the proposal here is in the same boat.
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