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A message everyone in HED-GP can come together about

First post First post
Author
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#221 - 2014-01-19 17:57:21 UTC
Stasis Leak wrote:
Niding wrote:
Stasis Leak:

We all know CCP is struggling to maintain the game at a playable level when we get into the 3-4000 character range in one system.

So we "brainstorm" suggestions that hopefully will get CCP going with improvements to the mechanics.
Calling "hurf and blurf rediculous" isnt very helpful.
Try your hand on some suggestions YOU think will help. Calling CCP out for "bad service" just wont do it.

People annoyed with a laggy expirience can either stomp their feet and cry foul, or try to suggest improvements.

And agree that consumables at gates aint the powerprojection fix we are looking for as said by Marlona Sky.

As for CVA/Providence and the Jammer; I belive AAA have sbu'd ymp for lolz a few times and I guess Provis decided to have some structure fun themselves. With intresting consequences.

Butterfly effect anyone?


I gave a suggestion on how the event yesterday could have been avoided. You probably didn't notice.
However, that won't fix the underlying problem. The system, as it is designed, not only allows such large scale events, it drives them.
To simply accept an excuse as to why your system won't do what it has to do to fulfill the requirements of it's design lets the company off the hook.
There are two ways to fix this. Better infrastructure/coding or fixing the game design that forces groups in the game into these encounters.
Here's another suggestion for you. How about making it impossible for a player who can't load grid to take any damage? Seems like a simple rule. How the hell did that get mucked up?
I'm a retired I.T. executive. I worked in the business for more than 30 years, from the bottom to the top. Not once was I ever allowed, or inclined, to say "the system I built for you simply won't do what you want it to do, so suck it".

CCP are pretty straight up at acknowledging the lag issues. A very small amount of effort is required with a search engine prior to subscribing to EVE to find out just how bad the lag issues are in large scale engagements. CCP have never advertised huge lagless fleet fights afaik.

As for making it impossible to take damage you're assuming that the server has the capability to tell whether a ship has loaded grid on all the clients. Like the drowning guy that drowns his mate trying to use him for floatation, the servers in an obvious unstable state trying to share around all those calls in the one second it has... before the next second.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Niding
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#222 - 2014-01-19 17:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Niding
Stasis Leak;

I think the fact that people keep posting suggestions/changes means they dont "accept excuses", and want "something done to enhance the gaming expirience".

As for your IT background (I assume private sector). Yes I do understand the aspect of customer service and doing your best to deliver (working in private sector myself).
CCP has improved performance since I started playing in 2006. Is it enough or have they gone about it the right way?
Judging by HED yesterday (and other fights); clearly no.

Hence we are sitting in this thread throwing off "ideas". I do assume that Im not the only without IT/Coding background, so wether our suggestions are possible, realistic, cost efficient etc is up to CCP DEVs/CSM to decide.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#223 - 2014-01-19 17:59:25 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Making players have consumables to take a gate is not the power projection nerf you are looking for.


Whatever mechanism, then, because soul crushing lag from Bloc A packing 2000 subcaps into a system, requiring bloc B to respond by bring 2001 subcaps isn't any less soul crushing than the lag caused by capitals or supercapitals.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#224 - 2014-01-19 18:00:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
If you guys really want to go down the 'only one use of a jump drive per day' route for capitals, then just tie it directly to the jump clone timer. Presto, now you have skills already in the game to affect jump drives and you don't have to worry about someone having the benefit of clone jumping to a second front, hopping in a capital ship and jumping somewhere else with it.

Of course the whole suicide your pod to travel would need to be addressed at the same time somehow.


I suppose you could put a timer on changing where your clone is stored.

Not a fan of the 24 hour cap jump drive limit. 2 hours seems a fair bit better.


Then you can do 12 jumps a day, Which means that Tueday's Branch fleet can easily save a timer in Immensea on Thursday.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#225 - 2014-01-19 18:02:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
To achieve this, CCP will have to truly radically reduce capital and supercapital movement. I'm talking about changes on the order of a 24 hour cooldown on capital jumps, requiring consumables for gate jumps, burning jump bridges to the ground, eliminating titan bridging and so on.


24 hour capital jump cooldown: Supported.

Consumables for Gate Jumps: Tentative. How much? What kind of fuel? For what hulls? What security Status? Subject to sov/standings?

Jump/Titan Bridge Removal: How about a 24 hour cooldown for whatever ships use a titan bridge or jump bridge, instead of removing them completely? This would allow a fleet to bridge only once, instead of several times. If you're concerned about jump range, lower the ranges!


Consumables for gate jumps: the idea isn't to make it expensive, but to make it logistically difficult. To pick an example, suppose jumping a battleship hull through a gate consumed, say, a Cap 150 charge. That would mean that the ship would have to carry 60m^3 of cap charges in order to travel 10 jumps. (and another 60m^3 in order to return!) Well that would be pretty bearable, so local scope engagements wouldn't be much affected. But to travel 30 or 40 jumps jumps (ie to cross a region or two), then you're looking at 180 or 240m^3 each way, and the cargo requirements become rather more significant.

Sure, fleets could bring haulers with more charges, but haulers are quite hard to protect, and losing your fuel truck could strand your fleet.

Jump & Titan Bridges. Yeah There are 4-digit numbers of titans in the game. even a cooldown isn't going to slow them down much.

Maybe limit alliances to 1-2 jump bridges total, or make them consume much more fuel (such that, again, the logistics requirement becomes significant).

The prices details don't matter all that much tbh. What matters is that moving more then 10-12 jumps away from your home will need to become something that one no longer does casually.


How many ****** pubbie threads before you stop thinking your half formed opinion and ideas are ever actually relevant or good?
Is it less than ten? please be less than ten.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#226 - 2014-01-19 18:03:23 UTC
Instead of the once per day deal for jump drives, it should be more functional in light years with a cap.

So everything that makes you go from one system to another without taking gates eats away at this pool of power projection. That includes jump drives, jump bridges, titan bridges, jump clones and even pod deaths. We already have these new skills in regards to having more clones and lower time to clone jump. So re-tasking them to enhance the power projection pool can be done without introducing new skills players have to train.

This would mean players would need to actually be strategic how they wanted to spend this pool. Could be all at once with jumping a carrier a time or two exhausting it or moving several different clones to a staging system so they can be more flexible on hardworking to give them an edge in flying a variety of ships. Also it would have more meaning to podding someone who is far away from their medical clone station. Because you know they will not be jumping a Slowcat carrier on your face 30 seconds later. Podding some brought a cheap damp Celestis would not mean they would be right back via titan bridge with yet another Celestis moments later.

The only remaining matter is figuring out a balanced cap on the power projection pool.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#227 - 2014-01-19 18:06:06 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Instead of the once per day deal for jump drives, it should be more functional in light years with a cap.

So everything that makes you go from one system to another without taking gates eats away at this pool of power projection. That includes jump drives, jump bridges, titan bridges, jump clones and even pod deaths. We already have these new skills in regards to having more clones and lower time to clone jump. So re-tasking them to enhance the power projection pool can be done without introducing new skills players have to train.

This would mean players would need to actually be strategic how they wanted to spend this pool. Could be all at once with jumping a carrier a time or two exhausting it or moving several different clones to a staging system so they can be more flexible on hardworking to give them an edge in flying a variety of ships. Also it would have more meaning to podding someone who is far away from their medical clone station. Because you know they will not be jumping a Slowcat carrier on your face 30 seconds later. Podding some brought a cheap damp Celestis would not mean they would be right back via titan bridge with yet another Celestis moments later.

The only remaining matter is figuring out a balanced cap on the power projection pool.


Yeah that's a pretty good refinement, I like it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#228 - 2014-01-19 18:07:01 UTC
Bob FromMarketing wrote:


How many ****** pubbie threads before you stop thinking your half formed opinion and ideas are ever actually relevant or good?
Is it less than ten? please be less than ten.


Oh it's a lot more than 10, Bob.

So very much more.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#229 - 2014-01-19 18:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob FromMarketing
Malcanis wrote:

Yeah that's a pretty good refinement, I like it.


herein lies the problem
nobody cares about what godawful idea you like because chances are it's


  • half formed
  • lacks mental refinement
  • has no basing in reality or basic logic
  • totally backwards
  • supported by verbose pubbies who enjoy running SOE missions and writing lengthy posts
  • yours
Stasis Leak
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#230 - 2014-01-19 18:08:55 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
As for making it impossible to take damage you're assuming that the server has the capability to tell whether a ship has loaded grid on all the clients. Like the drowning guy that drowns his mate trying to use him for floatation, the servers in an obvious unstable state trying to share around all those calls in the one second it has... before the next second.

Yes.
I would assume that a system that is capable of clocking all of those kills is also capable of determining whether or not they were actually in HED or Jita.
Seems reasonable to me.
Maybe spending the last 12 years as an executive, demanding things, has skewed my perception.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#231 - 2014-01-19 18:12:46 UTC
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Yeah that's a pretty good refinement, I like it.


herein lies the problem
nobody cares about what godawful idea you like because chances are it's


  • half formed
  • lacks mental refinement
  • has no basing in reality or basic logic
  • totally backwards
  • supported by verbose pubbies who enjoy running SOE missions and writing lengthy posts
  • yours

^^ #1 Fan of Malcanis
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#232 - 2014-01-19 18:15:28 UTC
I like you almost as much Marlona, I just wish you'd organize more useless community events
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#233 - 2014-01-19 18:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Bob FromMarketing wrote:


  • half formed
  • lacks mental refinement
  • has no basing in reality or basic logic
  • totally backwards
  • supported by verbose pubbies who enjoy running SOE missions and writing lengthy posts
  • yours


WHAT ABOUT THE SHAREHOLDERS?! WHO'S HELPING THEM OUT, BOB?!

Katrina Oniseki

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#234 - 2014-01-19 18:18:44 UTC
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Yeah that's a pretty good refinement, I like it.


herein lies the problem
nobody cares about what godawful idea you like because chances are it's


  • half formed
  • lacks mental refinement
  • has no basing in reality or basic logic
  • totally backwards
  • supported by verbose pubbies who enjoy running SOE missions and writing lengthy posts
  • yours


I seem to have somehow upset you, whoever you are.

I can't tell you how bad your content-free crying makes me, because I like being truthful.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#235 - 2014-01-19 18:21:59 UTC
Niding wrote:
Stasis Leak:

We all know CCP is struggling to maintain the game at a playable level when we get into the 3-4000 character range in one system.

So we "brainstorm" suggestions that hopefully will get CCP going with improvements to the mechanics.
Calling "hurf and blurf rediculous" isnt very helpful.
Try your hand on some suggestions YOU think will help. Calling CCP out for "bad service" just wont do it.

People annoyed with a laggy expirience can either stomp their feet and cry foul, or try to suggest improvements.

And agree that consumables at gates aint the powerprojection fix we are looking for as said by Marlona Sky.

As for CVA/Providence and the Jammer; I belive AAA have sbu'd ymp for lolz a few times and I guess Provis decided to have some structure fun themselves. With intresting consequences.

Butterfly effect anyone?


Apparently universities have degrees now in computer game design. CCP could perhaps find a person who has one and then pay them some money in exchange for ideas.
Stasis Leak
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#236 - 2014-01-19 18:26:22 UTC
Niding wrote:
Stasis Leak;

I think the fact that people keep posting suggestions/changes means they dont "accept excuses", and want "something done to enhance the gaming expirience".

As for your IT background (I assume private sector). Yes I do understand the aspect of customer service and doing your best to deliver (working in private sector myself).
CCP has improved performance since I started playing in 2006. Is it enough or have they gone about it the right way?
Judging by HED yesterday (and other fights); clearly no.

Hence we are sitting in this thread throwing off "ideas". I do assume that Im not the only without IT/Coding background, so wether our suggestions are possible, realistic, cost efficient etc is up to CCP DEVs/CSM to decide.

Niding, I understand what you are saying. Clearly, I'm not charitable enough to give the company the huge amount of leeway that most people obviously do.
I've never seen a provider do better because everyone patted them on the back and said "good try!". I have, however, seem many instances where someone, under the gun for screwing up, suddenly pulled a rabbit out of a hat and became the hero of the day.
I don't think the c'est la vie attitude toward these failures do anything for the company. Rather than blaming the players for playing the game, how about taking a little bit of responsibility.
I don't care about whether or not the fix is cost effective or convenient for the company. I'm a discriminating consumer, and I want what I pay for.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#237 - 2014-01-19 18:35:52 UTC
I wouldn't blame the numbers problem on force projection, I would blame it on the fact that here is usually only one important timer coming out at any given time.

If there were more timers that people had to show up to, suddenly power projection doesn't matter because now you have to choose what is most important to you (defending your stuff rather than helping out some random alliance because they are the enemy of your enemy), rather than showing up to everything because it's the only fight that matters that night.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#238 - 2014-01-19 18:52:46 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
I wouldn't blame the numbers problem on force projection, I would blame it on the fact that here is usually only one important timer coming out at any given time.

If there were more timers that people had to show up to, suddenly power projection doesn't matter because now you have to choose what is most important to you (defending your stuff rather than helping out some random alliance because they are the enemy of your enemy), rather than showing up to everything because it's the only fight that matters that night.

It is a combination of several factors. Like you describe, the current sov system and another major one is power projection. Basically the only bottleneck for the player being at the fight is if they want to or not. What they bring and when they bring it means very little given how easy it is to do it.

There needs to be more strategic choices. Right now, why bring an interceptor when I can bring a capital ship to an I-hub fight? Why stay and guard the walls to my territory when I know I can be just as effective showing up at the last minute before any harm is done? Why bother keeping an eye on assets in space when the moment someone looks at one wrong, I get a nifty little message telling me so instantly? The only exception so far has been the mobile siphon and that has only come about recently.

Bottom line is there is little to no reasons to not blob and to not bring the biggest ship you can find. Solve that, and you fix a lot of our problems. Everyone piling into one system onto one grid should have real penalties while you are not home.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#239 - 2014-01-19 18:53:09 UTC
interesangt wrote:
conclusion.. remove caps from game, sad to say this, but there aint no other way..

Yeah that will solve blabbing instead of a mix fleet if caps and subs, it'll just be how every many subcaps stuck staring at each other in 10% tidi

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Anthar Thebess
#240 - 2014-01-19 18:55:05 UTC
Why not another bad sov idea.

Each TCU generates subspace bauble around Ihub and itself for each timer. ( not for station timers).

This subspace bauble can be accessed only by subcaps up to 50 people from attacking and defending force.
( we cloud use standing system here and for defending and attacking side only people having +10 could warp to this battle ).

This subspace bauble can be accessed only 10 minutes before reinforce timer - after 10 minutes it closes and players that are inside have to fight other side.
( no cloaks allowed)

Wining side can access acceleration gate that allows access to some structure.
It have 2 options:
- SBU signal scrambler - all sbu in the system cycle , so timer is won till they are online again , if you will be able to able rep structure.
- Shutting down subspace bauble defending TCU or Ihub - only then you can cyno in capital fleet on the structure

This is bad idea - but it is far more better than the current nonsense.

So 50vs50 on separate node BEFORE current nonsence.