EVE General Discussion

Nobody to date has shown that null sec has higher income. It doest take a lot of looking to find all the data on this subject.

you're not needed or wanted


did you know that doubleclicking on empty space causes your ship to move in that direction

Except you don't. Mission pay out & bonus are included in the graph. Look under that tiny little bit at the top of each bar called 'extra's. That bit that also includes Overseer effects sold to NPC's, and ship insurance, and is still the smallest part of the entire graph. And includes all low & Null sec missions also, not just High Sec.
Despite the player number in null being lower, despite all your claims about isk/hr being lower in null. And we aren't counting any loot in any of this, of which Null leaves high for dead. Or PI.... Despite all that Null is producing several times what high is.

If you are prepared to deal with a couple of assumptions, we can even estimate the value of LP earned via missions. Though this also includes all LP earned in low & null from missions.
Entire rewards average. Lets go with 4 trillion a month, though I think it's closer to 3. But lets start high side.
Lets then say that 50% of that entire category is mission rewards. The other 2 Trillion are overseer effects, ship insurance & any other miscellaneous items that aren't already covered.
Then we will assume all players get the bonus isk for mission rewards. It's pretty rare to fail to get them done in time after all.
And we will finally assume only lvl 4 missions are relevant here, lvl 5's being rarely run, and lvl 1-3's giving huge factors less reward.
And finally I will assume no social skills. Since mission runners are lazy and never train cha skills, noobs :P (Mainly I have to start somewhere)

Since we don't have hard figures, these assumptions are needed to estimate LP earned.
We now have 2 Trillion isk earned via lvl 4 missions using these assumptions.
I'm going to have to make one further assumption, that LP payout is scaled on the same scale as isk payout for the various different missions, as no-one has made a record of average isk & lp rewards only. They all talk about total earnings including bounties.

Maths working off worlds collide = 3.33 Trillion isk value of LP, using average LP value. Taking the most valuable LP would technically inflate this figure, but the reality is if everyone farmed the most valuable LP, it would quickly cease to be the most valuable as everyone would be providing it and the other LP's would be rarer.
So.... Total value earned by Lvl 4 missions a month excluding bounties. Approx 5.33 Trillion.

Incursion LP is even easier.
5 Trillion / 31.5 Million * 7000 LP * 1000isk (Approx average value for Concord LP)
= 1.1 Trillion isk in LP earned in incursions in a month. So. Incursions with LP included come up to 6.1 Trillion value

So..... Simply blathering on about 'Incursion Isk/Hr' doesn't hold a candle, when you consider that you already have the figures right there proving incursions earn less than null bounties do. You just love to take a best case for incursions, and apply that to thousands of high seccers 23/7, claiming they all earn that much. The reality with incursions is that they don't tick that fast permanently. Only the equivalent 4000 HQ sites are run average total a month between all the Incursions. That's 100 a day, or just over 4 an hour average. And that is between every incursion from Null to High, and lumps Vanguards & Assault income in with HQ sites. Given there are normally 2-3 High Sec incursions running and four communities that run HQ sites...... That means you are not getting anywhere near as many sites per hour as you like to claim on average.

Now for the last part. High Sec Bounties. Low + High Sec bounties total a mere 8.4 Trillion. Low Sec ratting is certainly a thing. But lets go high end and call 75% of that earned in High Sec even. 6.3 Trillion.


5.3 + 6.1 + 6.3 = 17.7 Trillion high sec earnings, including LP into the calculation as well. And pretending Null & Low Sec don't get some of those lvl 4 missions & incursion earnings.
21.6 Trillion a month. Pure Null Sec bounty earning.

So yea. Solid maths, with some assumptions yes, but erring on the likely higher side, and only CCP will have better figures if they ever choose to release this much in depth analysis of incomes.
That solidly shows that in absolute terms, Null earns vastly more than High Sec does. Despite less people living there.

The graphs you are trying to use are useless in working out null income vs high. There is no detail or area breakdown which means you have no data that can be used to work anything out other than how much isk is sloshing about.

How much pve do you do. It doesn't seem like much because all fo this is testable in a real in-game setting. To get to your conclusions you have to make so many assumptions from facts not in evidence that theres no way you can think ti's reliable.

And none of you analysis takes into account losses/overhead. The people doing missions in high sec aren't part of an organization pay a SOV bill. They aren't dying at the same rat null ratters are (suicide ganks in high sec usually happen to financially viable targets, the only requirement for a ratter to be killed in null is for said ratter to be in space). Not losing ships and not losing time (i have yet to need to dock up in Lanngisi because someone comes into the system lol) is super valuable,.

As i've told others, there is isk to be made in null sec, sure is. But there is a REASON why Apanake, Osmon, Lanngisi and the systems around those 3 have more combined npcs kills than any15 null regions put together.

I didn't just imagine the factors that prompted me to stop using shiny ships in null when i could be making 400+ mil an hour doing Faction warfare missions in a drake or 100 to 180 mil an hour SOE missions/high sec incursions (and it wasn't the ships that made SOE LP valuable, it happened before that, with the introduction of wormholes, the same way jump freighters made Trust partners LP valuable). I still putter around in null because it's fun, but once you know anything about PVE, it's just not the best way to earn isk for other things.

Like I said to you in that other thread, you do know that a large portion of SOV holding alliances characters are not in null sec right? 90k characters in sov holding alliances but not 90k characters in null sec at any given moment (and some of those characters in null are npc corp alts to boot).

The Goons ARE in high sec.


Not enough tinfoil on earth for you.

The breakdown can be inferred fairly accurately. We know that 72% of Bounties (You want to claim kills which makes that % even larger) are from Null, bounties are the only area which is going to be highly mixed. It can also be reasonably inferred that missions are effectively all high sec. And that effectively all Incursions are high sec. This obviously isn't true but is going to be within 10% probably. And calculates the high sec income higher than it actually is making for more favourable null calculations.

The breakdown of that tiny area of mission rewards + ship insurance + other things is the one area we can't be clear on. But the 50% approximation on that is a start point. Even if it was 100% mission rewards it wouldn't skew the maths huge amounts.

As for Jenn. Plenty of PvE, just not lvl 4's, I run incursions, anoms & sigs. The assumptions I am making are for maths calculations because I don't have sufficient data points. If someone who has run 5000 lvl 4's lately wants to give me the average mission reward + LP gain from them I can redo the maths with their figures.


As for Loss/overhead. You are right, I haven't. Hence why I have been talking absolute income is higher. I haven't been addressing the risk/reward ratio at all, because that is a totally different argument. I've just been debunking the 'High sec earns more isk' myth. And highly effectively, the figures don't lie.

Except we are not comparing isk/hr. We are comparing total isk actually earnt. Which Null is winning on DESPITE fewer people out there by about 4 to 1. Meaning the isk/person is vastly higher than High. Additionally LP was calculated if you look above as an approximate figure. And doesn't come out to enough to make High sec even total higher. Let alone higher per person.

Only if you under-estimate the value of things like LP, which you are.

I ask again, why do you think a lot of us (who actually SEE what goes into our wallets) choose high sec over null for isk generating activity when we'd rather have those characters in null? Your math is theoretical, based on assumptions and incomplete. Our math is based on what actually happens to our wallets.

Then produce better overall analysis. Rather than simply asserting that your personal experience is both typical and repeatable, as well as scalable to a large extent. Yes, right now SoE LP is higher than I valued LP at. Yet if everyone ran SoE LP, it would be way lower. So, you have to work of an averaged value when working at the scale of New Eden's economy rather than individuals.

You are all obsessing over 'I can min max my isk/hr by doing 'this'.' With no consideration as to how sustainable that would be if everyone actually undertook that activity.

The figures don't lie. Earning in Null Sec has been higher than earning in High Sec. On straight isk value. Even when including LP. And when including all the other products like moon goo, officer mods, Deadspace loot and PI, it's going to leave High Sec for dead.