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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#921 - 2014-01-17 02:46:47 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
But, but profit!


Get it into your head.

They're not trying to make a profit. What they'd like to do is be able to manufacture stuff to a degree of efficacy that abrogates their total reliance on Jita for some of their needs.

That's it. The two are unrelated.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Genseric Tollaris
Hard Cog Industry
#922 - 2014-01-17 03:31:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
But, but profit!


Get it into your head.

They're not trying to make a profit. What they'd like to do is be able to manufacture stuff to a degree of efficacy that abrogates their total reliance on Jita for some of their needs.

That's it. The two are unrelated.



Umm unless I've missed something, didn't you just say they want to profit by saving isk they'd otherwise spend in jita?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#923 - 2014-01-17 03:57:39 UTC
dude highsec is barren, flying through it makes me wonder why there aren't panhandlers set up on gates. poortown. if that's something that needs to be nerfed due to too much income, i say 'nerf highsec' criers are the truly poor

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#924 - 2014-01-17 04:57:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
But, but profit!


Get it into your head.

They're not trying to make a profit. What they'd like to do is be able to manufacture stuff to a degree of efficacy that abrogates their total reliance on Jita for some of their needs.

That's it. The two are unrelated.


So if we add a million lines at each station costing 10 million isk/hours to run, people from null-sec would do industry in null because they can? I mean you just said it was not about running a profit so who cares if you get a huge loss on every single item right?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#925 - 2014-01-17 05:18:51 UTC
Just as a note, taking the recently revealed in the German Forum that 72% of all Bounties are from Null and referencing that to the Fanfest Faucets/Sinks graph, tells us that Null is the largest Isk Faucet in the game, with 42% of the total isk Faucets being Null Bounties, and an unknown additional sized faucet from Overseer Effects sold to NPC orders & Insurance from destroyed ships (Like Dreads).

So it's likely that Null accounts for about 50%.

WH Space accounts for a known 20%, with again, a slight unknown additional.

While all Empire space (Both Low & High) account for about 30%.

These figures include incursions, which between all spaces account for a mere 10% of the total Faucet, at about 1/6th the ratio of bounties.

These figures obviously include only isk creation sources and don't account for LP, Loot, Moon Goo, PI or other such goods creation which only results in isk changing hands between players, so aren't a total income guide, but given everything except LP is better in Null than High, makes it pretty obvious Null being poorer in absolute terms is a lie.
blabla4711
Doomheim
#926 - 2014-01-17 05:44:02 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
is a lie.


*grasp* Zergswarm-Gooners Shitposter and the usual vocal ForumHeroes including Tippia & Co posting bs/lies? Shocked

News at 11 Blink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#927 - 2014-01-17 05:44:40 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Just as a note, taking the recently revealed in the German Forum that 72% of all Bounties are from Null and referencing that to the Fanfest Faucets/Sinks graph, tells us that Null is the largest Isk Faucet in the game, with 42% of the total isk Faucets being Null Bounties, and an unknown additional sized faucet from Overseer Effects sold to NPC orders & Insurance from destroyed ships (Like Dreads).

So it's likely that Null accounts for about 50%.

WH Space accounts for a known 20%, with again, a slight unknown additional.

While all Empire space (Both Low & High) account for about 30%.

These figures include incursions, which between all spaces account for a mere 10% of the total Faucet, at about 1/6th the ratio of bounties.

These figures obviously include only isk creation sources and don't account for LP, Loot, Moon Goo, PI or other such goods creation which only results in isk changing hands between players, so aren't a total income guide, but given everything except LP is better in Null than High, makes it pretty obvious Null being poorer in absolute terms is a lie.


So why is 80% of the population in high sec?

Why would 80% of bots move to highsec level 4s if null was better? We know its much easier to bot in null.

Where did these numbers come from because they do not fit in with what evidence we have gathered.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#928 - 2014-01-17 05:48:08 UTC
To be fair to people like Tippia & James, much as their posts are normally loaded with plenty of misleading statements, some of them don't outright lie. They just Cherry pick their statistics to present their argument in the best possible light while pretending the other statistics don't exist. (Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics...).

Though Tippia's analysis (That claimed High sec was the big Faucet) of the income off the 72% of bounties come from null revelation was wrong when based off the 2013 Fanfest graphs, it is 'possible' they have more recent figures, in which case I'd love to see them. However most likely it was caused by them getting told incorrect figures rather than deliberate lies.

It's too easy to just dismiss them as lying, rather than being misinformed. And that results in their good points being lost at times. Some of the goons however, you would be right about :). They just lie away.
Genseric Tollaris
Hard Cog Industry
#929 - 2014-01-17 05:51:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Just as a note, taking the recently revealed in the German Forum that 72% of all Bounties are from Null and referencing that to the Fanfest Faucets/Sinks graph, tells us that Null is the largest Isk Faucet in the game, with 42% of the total isk Faucets being Null Bounties, and an unknown additional sized faucet from Overseer Effects sold to NPC orders & Insurance from destroyed ships (Like Dreads).

So it's likely that Null accounts for about 50%.

WH Space accounts for a known 20%, with again, a slight unknown additional.

While all Empire space (Both Low & High) account for about 30%.

These figures include incursions, which between all spaces account for a mere 10% of the total Faucet, at about 1/6th the ratio of bounties.

These figures obviously include only isk creation sources and don't account for LP, Loot, Moon Goo, PI or other such goods creation which only results in isk changing hands between players, so aren't a total income guide, but given everything except LP is better in Null than High, makes it pretty obvious Null being poorer in absolute terms is a lie.


So why is 80% of the population in high sec?


Probably because null sec isn't particularly welcoming and they don't think the benefit of living there outweighs the risks/hassles compared to whats on offer in high sec.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#930 - 2014-01-17 05:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
baltec1 wrote:


So why is 80% of the population in high sec?

Why would 80% of bots move to highsec level 4s if null was better? We know its much easier to bot in null.

Where did these numbers come from because they do not fit in with what evidence we have gathered.

Easy one to answer.
Perception of Risk/Reward. In part helped on no small way by the goons constantly scamming/awoxing people and laughing and then continually posting how Null sucks all the time.

For the figures.
http://i.imgur.com/tO8lW9C.png
Fanfest Presentation 2013. Faucets & Sinks.
As you can clearly see, Bounties average 30-31 Trillion a month over the year, while Incursions average 5 trillion. Incursions are more variable, and I'd love to have the 2013-2014 data to see how that variability changes and if it matches the previous years pattern also or not. But we most likely have to wait for Fanfest for that.

For the 72% of bounties (reference previous graph for total income from that) being generated in Null.
Original Dev post. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=312615
English Translation for those of us not multi-lingual. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4118978#post4118978

While these aren't identical time periods as bounties/faucets in general show they were relatively steady for the entire 2012-2013 period we have no reason to believe they have undergone a significant change in scale overall. So it's the best figures we can use to analyse this situation ourselves unless CCP are prepared to release a fresh batch of data.

----Edit
Also, your 'bot data' is flawed. Simply because they have reported bots banned in high sec does not mean the ratter bots all moved to high sec to be mission bots. The Bots banned data doesn't differentiate between type of bots, and there are a great many spam bots/isk seller bots that they regularly ban out of the trade hubs, which will significantly skew that data. Additionally bots banned does not always match bots in operation.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#931 - 2014-01-17 05:54:41 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To be fair to people like Tippia & James, much as their posts are normally loaded with plenty of misleading statements, some of them don't outright lie. They just Cherry pick their statistics to present their argument in the best possible light while pretending the other statistics don't exist. (Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics...).

Though Tippia's analysis (That claimed High sec was the big Faucet) of the income off the 72% of bounties come from null revelation was wrong when based off the 2013 Fanfest graphs, it is 'possible' they have more recent figures, in which case I'd love to see them. However most likely it was caused by them getting told incorrect figures rather than deliberate lies.

It's too easy to just dismiss them as lying, rather than being misinformed. And that results in their good points being lost at times. Some of the goons however, you would be right about :). They just lie away.


The fact that CCP allows these people to spin these outright lies on the forums speaks volumes about what CCP thinks of the largest segment of their subscription base.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#932 - 2014-01-17 06:17:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


So why is 80% of the population in high sec?

Why would 80% of bots move to highsec level 4s if null was better? We know its much easier to bot in null.

Where did these numbers come from because they do not fit in with what evidence we have gathered.

Easy one to answer.
Perception of Risk/Reward. In part helped on no small way by the goons constantly scamming/awoxing people and laughing and then continually posting how Null sucks all the time.

For the figures.
http://i.imgur.com/tO8lW9C.png
Fanfest Presentation 2013. Faucets & Sinks.
As you can clearly see, Bounties average 30-31 Trillion a month over the year, while Incursions average 5 trillion. Incursions are more variable, and I'd love to have the 2013-2014 data to see how that variability changes and if it matches the previous years pattern also or not. But we most likely have to wait for Fanfest for that.

For the 72% of bounties (reference previous graph for total income from that) being generated in Null.
Original Dev post. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=312615
English Translation for those of us not multi-lingual. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4118978#post4118978

While these aren't identical time periods as bounties/faucets in general show they were relatively steady for the entire 2012-2013 period we have no reason to believe they have undergone a significant change in scale overall. So it's the best figures we can use to analyse this situation ourselves unless CCP are prepared to release a fresh batch of data.

----Edit
Also, your 'bot data' is flawed. Simply because they have reported bots banned in high sec does not mean the ratter bots all moved to high sec to be mission bots. The Bots banned data doesn't differentiate between type of bots, and there are a great many spam bots/isk seller bots that they regularly ban out of the trade hubs, which will significantly skew that data. Additionally bots banned does not always match bots in operation.


Right so the first link shows total bounties, no breakdowns.

The 72% quote is NPC's killed, not isk earned. This makes sense given that null is about killing red crosses while high sec haz LP rewards and mission payments.

None of them say the null income is better than high sec. So nothing has changed, the facts still show that high sec offers the best income.
Genseric Tollaris
Hard Cog Industry
#933 - 2014-01-17 06:19:54 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To be fair to people like Tippia & James, much as their posts are normally loaded with plenty of misleading statements, some of them don't outright lie. They just Cherry pick their statistics to present their argument in the best possible light while pretending the other statistics don't exist. (Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics...).

Though Tippia's analysis (That claimed High sec was the big Faucet) of the income off the 72% of bounties come from null revelation was wrong when based off the 2013 Fanfest graphs, it is 'possible' they have more recent figures, in which case I'd love to see them. However most likely it was caused by them getting told incorrect figures rather than deliberate lies.

It's too easy to just dismiss them as lying, rather than being misinformed. And that results in their good points being lost at times. Some of the goons however, you would be right about :). They just lie away.


The fact that CCP allows these people to spin these outright lies on the forums speaks volumes about what CCP thinks of the largest segment of their subscription base.


I think it's just a case of CCP listening to the goons & co because they never shut up and they sound reasonable. Though it is pretty cool that the meta game extends to influencing CCP to modify the game to the goons advantage. In this case I suppose it would be about getting more worker bees into null to farm the fields and line the pockets of the higher ups. To do that, buff null, nerf high. And slowcats, nerf them too. Can't expand the rental empire with n3 and pl in the way.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#934 - 2014-01-17 06:21:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Right so the first link shows total bounties, no breakdowns.

The 72% quote is NPC's killed, not isk earned. This makes sense given that null is about killing red crosses while high sec haz LP rewards and mission payments.

None of them say the null income is better than high sec. So nothing has changed, the facts still show that high sec offers the best income.

I don't speak german so I went with the translation.

If the 72% is NPC's killed, then an even larger percentage of bounties come from Null, as Null Rats are much more valuable than high sec Rats. Meaning the numbers skew even further in Null being the largest isk faucet. You can't get away from that. Despite more people living in High, Null is still creating the most isk. As well as the most income in other area's also.

The facts are quite clear on that, Null is the best absolute income. But as I said, some of you will just outright lie.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#935 - 2014-01-17 06:25:06 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To be fair to people like Tippia & James, much as their posts are normally loaded with plenty of misleading statements, some of them don't outright lie. They just Cherry pick their statistics to present their argument in the best possible light while pretending the other statistics don't exist. (Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics...).

Though Tippia's analysis (That claimed High sec was the big Faucet) of the income off the 72% of bounties come from null revelation was wrong when based off the 2013 Fanfest graphs, it is 'possible' they have more recent figures, in which case I'd love to see them. However most likely it was caused by them getting told incorrect figures rather than deliberate lies.

It's too easy to just dismiss them as lying, rather than being misinformed. And that results in their good points being lost at times. Some of the goons however, you would be right about :). They just lie away.


The fact that CCP allows these people to spin these outright lies on the forums speaks volumes about what CCP thinks of the largest segment of their subscription base.


citation needed

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#936 - 2014-01-17 06:26:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Right so the first link shows total bounties, no breakdowns.

The 72% quote is NPC's killed, not isk earned. This makes sense given that null is about killing red crosses while high sec haz LP rewards and mission payments.

None of them say the null income is better than high sec. So nothing has changed, the facts still show that high sec offers the best income.

I don't speak german so I went with the translation.

If the 72% is NPC's killed, then an even larger percentage of bounties come from Null, as Null Rats are much more valuable than high sec Rats. Meaning the numbers skew even further in Null being the largest isk faucet. You can't get away from that. Despite more people living in High, Null is still creating the most isk. As well as the most income in other area's also.

The facts are quite clear on that, Null is the best absolute income. But as I said, some of you will just outright lie.


Show us the facts and show us how they prove it. The bolded part is the highsec mindset, "What I don't like is a lie, what I do like is true."

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#937 - 2014-01-17 06:29:36 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


Show us the facts and show us how they prove it. The bolded part is the highsec mindset, "What I don't like is a lie, what I do like is true."

If you bother reading up, I did just that already.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#938 - 2014-01-17 07:29:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Right so the first link shows total bounties, no breakdowns.

The 72% quote is NPC's killed, not isk earned. This makes sense given that null is about killing red crosses while high sec haz LP rewards and mission payments.

None of them say the null income is better than high sec. So nothing has changed, the facts still show that high sec offers the best income.

I don't speak german so I went with the translation.

If the 72% is NPC's killed, then an even larger percentage of bounties come from Null, as Null Rats are much more valuable than high sec Rats. Meaning the numbers skew even further in Null being the largest isk faucet. You can't get away from that. Despite more people living in High, Null is still creating the most isk. As well as the most income in other area's also.

The facts are quite clear on that, Null is the best absolute income. But as I said, some of you will just outright lie.


Wrong. When you add onthe mission payout, mission bonus and LP payout you end up with more income than anoms.

If CCP want to nerf isk being injected the should nerf all bounties. This nerf is just going to drive more of us into high sec.
Lugalbandak
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#939 - 2014-01-17 07:37:52 UTC
dont worry baltec , high sec is big enough for us all , welcome back Big smile

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
blabla4711
Doomheim
#940 - 2014-01-17 07:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: blabla4711
baltec1 wrote:

Wrong. When you add onthe mission payout, mission bonus and LP payout you end up with more income than anoms.

If CCP want to nerf isk being injected the should nerf all bounties. This nerf is just going to drive more of us into high sec.


Always funny .... you ask everyone else to prove all that they say ... and if they do, you and people like you ignore it and repeat all their old bs again without end without any proof at their end because "you know better".

Goon-Shitposting as usual. Lol