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[CLRGY] A Return & That which Binds Us - Amarr

Author
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#161 - 2011-11-24 16:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
One thing to consider is the Heirarchy of Laws.

Allow me to explain.

If a human government were to pass a law outlawing gravity, gravity would still exist. This is because the laws of nature supercede the laws of man.

Similarly, the laws of God supercede the laws of nature, because God can do pretty much anything that He wants, and He wrote the laws of nature anyway.

So far we have:

Law of God
Law of Nature
Law of Man


Now, it just so happens that mankind has more than one body of law, so we should split the Law of Man up. International treaties generally supercede national legislation, so the Yulai Convention could arguably be put above the laws of the four factions. If we were to look at things from a neutral viewpoint those bodies of law would have equal weighting, and we would then end up with this:

Law of God
Law of Nature
Yulai Convention
Amarrian Law / Caldari Law / Minmatar Law / Gallente Law


But you see, even if we do give Amarrian Law equal weighting with Minmatar Law, the Law of God is still more important than either.

So if the Law of God is incorporated in Amarrian Law, then it stands to reason that those parts of Amarrian Law taken from the Law of God do in fact carry more importance than all other human laws.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2011-11-24 16:23:24 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
One thing to consider is the Heirarchy of Laws.

Allow me to explain.

If a human government were to pass a law outlawing gravity, gravity would still exist. This is because the laws of nature supercede the laws of man.

Similarly, the laws of God supercede the laws of nature


Stop right there. This presumes the existence of God, which I have previously proven is an invalid presumption. The premises of your argument are fundamentally flawed.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#163 - 2011-11-24 16:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
One thing to consider is the Heirarchy of Laws.

Allow me to explain.

If a human government were to pass a law outlawing gravity, gravity would still exist. This is because the laws of nature supercede the laws of man.

Similarly, the laws of God supercede the laws of nature


Stop right there. This presumes the existence of God, which I have previously proven is an invalid presumption. The premises of your argument are fundamentally flawed.


All you've proven is your own short-sightedness.

Ignorance of the law does not invalidate it.

That is why we are on a mission to spread God's word.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#164 - 2011-11-24 16:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Rodj Blake wrote:

So if the Law of God is incorporated in Amarrian Law, then it stands to reason that those parts of Amarrian Law taken from the Law of God do in fact carry more importance than all other human laws.


So, you openly admit that the laws of other nations don't apply to you, because they're subservient to 'God's Law'?

To extend your analogy to its logical conclusion:

Since you have declared that you are not subject to the laws of humankind, you have no standing before any interstelllar or planetary court and are thus not enttled to the protection of laws passed in said court.

(I'd also like to remind you that planetary governments may not pick and choose which specific laws apply to them and which don't, so there's no point arguing that precedent).

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Sakura Imoru
Perkone
Caldari State
#165 - 2011-11-24 16:27:46 UTC
Considering that the Amarr claim to be superior to everyone they surely get a lot of beating by them:

-The Jove literally obliterated the Amarr Navy at Vak'Atioth

-The Matari kicked the well equiped Imperial Navy out of Heimatar using ships that were literally welded together by stuff lying around (If I remember correctly the original engines of the Rifter were made from modified mining equipment)

- The Matari invaded the Amarr Empire only 3 years ago (after beating the "invincible" CONCORD in their own system, thereby showing that their "inferior" technology can easily compete with the most advanced ones), wreaking havoc deep inside imperial borders. And even if Jamyl was able to eventually defeat one of the three Titan-fleets, it was hardly a victory. Mekhios' surface is still trying to recover from that Ragnarok-hull that crashed on the planet, it's damaged reactors leaving huge areas uninhabitable.
Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
#166 - 2011-11-24 16:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ethidium Bromide
Subjects Stjerna and Ixiris fail to accept that logic is not the way to deal with the divine.

They are munching on dog treats, we are offering feasts!
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#167 - 2011-11-24 16:31:09 UTC
Sakura Imoru wrote:
Considering that the Amarr claim to be superior to everyone they surely get a lot of beating by them:

-The Jove literally obliterated the Amarr Navy at Vak'Atioth



Wrong. The Jove defeated a small part of the Amarr Navy at Vak'Atioth.


Quote:

-The Matari kicked the well equiped Imperial Navy out of Heimatar using ships that were literally welded together by stuff lying around (If I remember correctly the original engines of the Rifter were made from modified mining equipment)

- The Matari invaded the Amarr Empire only 3 years ago (after beating the "invincible" CONCORD in their own system, thereby showing that their "inferior" technology can easily compete with the most advanced ones), wreaking havoc deep inside imperial borders. And even if Jamyl was able to eventually defeat one of the three Titan-fleets, it was hardly a victory. Mekhios' surface is still trying to recover from that Ragnarok-hull that crashed on the planet, it's damaged reactors leaving huge areas uninhabitable.


Yes, it's almost as though the Minmatars had a mysterious backer supplying them, isn't it?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#168 - 2011-11-24 16:34:08 UTC
Ethidium Bromide wrote:
Subjects Stjerna and Ixiris fail to accept that logic is not the way to deal with the divine.

They are munching on dog treats, we are offering feasts!



More than that - the logic that they use has more flaws in it than a spent Gleam crystal.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2011-11-24 16:34:17 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
All you've proven is your own short-sightedness.


Short-sightedness? From the man who posits a clearly invalid argument and then insists that despite all logic and reason pointing against it, he's right and reality itself is wrong?

The Law of God is a Lie. This is the truth.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Sakura Imoru
Perkone
Caldari State
#170 - 2011-11-24 16:36:47 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Sakura Imoru wrote:
Considering that the Amarr claim to be superior to everyone they surely get a lot of beating by them:

-The Jove literally obliterated the Amarr Navy at Vak'Atioth



Wrong. The Jove defeated a small part of the Amarr Navy at Vak'Atioth.


I never said how big the fleet was back then, fact is: it was obliterated.


Quote:
Quote:

-The Matari kicked the well equiped Imperial Navy out of Heimatar using ships that were literally welded together by stuff lying around (If I remember correctly the original engines of the Rifter were made from modified mining equipment)

- The Matari invaded the Amarr Empire only 3 years ago (after beating the "invincible" CONCORD in their own system, thereby showing that their "inferior" technology can easily compete with the most advanced ones), wreaking havoc deep inside imperial borders. And even if Jamyl was able to eventually defeat one of the three Titan-fleets, it was hardly a victory. Mekhios' surface is still trying to recover from that Ragnarok-hull that crashed on the planet, it's damaged reactors leaving huge areas uninhabitable.


Yes, it's almost as though the Minmatars had a mysterious backer supplying them, isn't it?

Even if they were: Since the supporters must be inferior beings as well, it doesn't matter... IF the Amarrians really were superior.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2011-11-24 16:36:47 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
More than that - the logic that they use has more flaws in it than a spent Gleam crystal.


And yet you won't - and can't - point out what precisely they are.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#172 - 2011-11-24 16:37:54 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

So if the Law of God is incorporated in Amarrian Law, then it stands to reason that those parts of Amarrian Law taken from the Law of God do in fact carry more importance than all other human laws.


So, you openly admit that the laws of other nations don't apply to you, because they're subservient to 'God's Law'?

To extend your analogy to its logical conclusion:

Since you have declared that you are not subject to the laws of humankind, you have no standing before any interstelllar or planetary court and are thus not enttled to the protection of laws passed in said court.


I've declared no such thing. I've merely said that the laws of God and the laws of nature supercede the laws of man.


Quote:

(I'd also like to remind you that planetary governments may not pick and choose which specific laws apply to them and which don't, so there's no point arguing that precedent).


That was my point. Even atheist goverments are subject to God's laws - they just don't realise it.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2011-11-24 16:38:53 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
That was my point. Even atheist goverments are subject to God's laws


Except they aren't, as God doesn't exist.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#174 - 2011-11-24 16:39:19 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
All you've proven is your own short-sightedness.


Short-sightedness? From the man who posits a clearly invalid argument and then insists that despite all logic and reason pointing against it, he's right and reality itself is wrong?

The Law of God is a Lie. This is the truth.



The Scriptures will be your spectacles.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
#175 - 2011-11-24 16:40:57 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

The Law of God is a Lie. This is the truth.


you repeatedly fail to understand that just because you cannot understand it it is not a lie!
some thousand years ago you would have argued against the existance of the very fundamentals of physics that let you travel space today!

clearly you are a non-yielding ignorant.

Admiral Blake's wisdom is pearls before swines in your case.
i can only hope the less vocal people are more open minded and not joining you on your unholy crusade to try and stomp out the light that is to save the worlds!
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2011-11-24 16:53:42 UTC
Ethidium Bromide wrote:
you repeatedly fail to understand that just because you cannot understand it it is not a lie!


Oh, I understand the concept of God and the Scriptures perfectly well. I've read quite the majority of the Scriptures, actually. My understanding of them is precisely why I don't believe in them.

Ethidium Bromide wrote:
some thousand years ago you would have argued against the existance of the very fundamentals of physics that let you travel space today!


Actually, I'm a scientist. I argue against the existence of ideas and concepts that are non-falsifiable - that cannot be disproven. Now, from a logical perspective, the existence of your God can easily be disproven - this awkward aspect of logic is why you insist that God exists in a place beyond logic, reason and empirical observation. Well, you see, science is all about empirical observation. Yes, I can't see a quark with my own two eyes, but I can reliably infer its existence through its interactions with other particles, and the well-tested and well-documented theoretical framework of subatomic particle physics.

OK, so yes, fine, it's possible that a God could exist in a place far beyond human understanding, logic, reason and science, but that sort of nebulous speculation is of no practical worth to anyone. The theoretical principles I study can be tested. Those tests can produce results, and those results can be replicated and reproduced to be reviewed and examined by others. The science I study can demonstrably propel ships of vast mass between distances barely comprehensible to the human mind in a fraction of a second.

It was not faith in God or the gods that took the Federation to the stars. It was science, reason and logic. The same is true of your people.

Ethidium Bromide wrote:
i can only hope the less vocal people are more open minded and not joining you on your unholy crusade to try and stomp out the light that is to save the worlds!


Your prayers are not answered.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2011-11-24 16:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ran'shad
Ethidium Bromide wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

The Law of God is a Lie. This is the truth.


you repeatedly fail to understand that just because you cannot understand it it is not a lie!
some thousand years ago you would have argued against the existance of the very fundamentals of physics that let you travel space today!

clearly you are a non-yielding ignorant.

Admiral Blake's wisdom is pearls before swines in your case.
i can only hope the less vocal people are more open minded and not joining you on your unholy crusade to try and stomp out the light that is to save the worlds!



Unfortunately my Brothers, it would seem that we are faced with one who not only would deny the Lords Will, His Wisdom and His Word. Given his insolence and affinity for argument in the face of all reason and logic, I would suggest that he be a candidate for subjagation, I would donate the Vitoc myself....I'm sure with enough hard labour he would begin to realize that the only path is the path of the Lord.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#178 - 2011-11-24 16:55:47 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:


I've declared no such thing. I've merely said that the laws of God and the laws of nature supercede the laws of man.


I stand corrected. Still, you would be hard-pressed to find a cout of law that would accept that line of reasoning.

Quote:

Even atheist goverments are subject to God's laws - they just don't realise it.


Again, you would be hard-pressed to find a court that would accept that. How, for example, does one serve God with a summons? Is God a 'resident' of any legal district or jurisdiction? Most planetary governments have defined the application of the term 'human' as it applies to the legal process. Consequently -- does God, as a non-human by definition, have any standing before a court of law?

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2011-11-24 17:00:06 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
Unfortunately my Brothers, it would seem that we are faced with one who not only would deny the Lords Will, His Wisdom and His Word. Given his insolence and affinity for argument in the face of all reason and logic, I would suggest that he be a candidate for subjagation, I would donate the Vitoc myself....I'm sure with enough hard labour he would begin to realize that the only path is the path of the Lord.


This sort of baseless and empty threat does you no favours. Such a proposition is impossible, and thrusting your chest out and angrily proposing it makes you look like a fool - not that you needed any help with that. It's been made against people like Evanda Char many, many times - although one supposes creepy old men like Rodj had slightly different reasons for making it. She's still kicking around, entirely unenslaved.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#180 - 2011-11-24 17:00:20 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:


I've declared no such thing. I've merely said that the laws of God and the laws of nature supercede the laws of man.


I stand corrected. Still, you would be hard-pressed to find a cout of law that would accept that line of reasoning.


It would be quite easy actually, I'd just head to the nearest Theology Council station.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori