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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1381 - 2014-01-17 00:49:43 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

considering the time investment needed to make such a small % to pay off, that sounds like a hell of alot more hassle then it's worth. Quite honestly, the only place I see this thing being regularly used is by those uber large bloc null alliances which have total lockdowns for secure isk generation systems... ie, this makes life harder for the 'nubs' and easier for the ones the nubs already have issues with.

In short, CCP is showing favoritism?


The time investment to make a small % of pay off?
It takes you 60s to anchor this at the start of your farming session.

Anytime a hostile enters system, or when you are done ratting for the day, it takes you another 60 seconds to swap to an inty, warp on grid, and hit share all, AND scoop it to your cargo.

That's 120 seconds of your life. I'll double it in case your slow. So, in 4 minutes you make 5-10% more isk per tick. What's a good return on 4 minutes of your time? 75m isk / hour would mean this must net you 5 million isk to be worth your time. Gee, after 100 m isk in bounties, its paying that 75m isk / hr. At 200m isk in bounties, thats 150m isk per hour.

But it isn't worth your time?

And then there's the nonsense that only "large alliances" with "Secure isk generation" can benefit from this? Well, that just described half of nullsec. And the truth is, I already pointed out how a solo player could utilize this themselves. This is a straight up boon to ratting, and it is a great farms and fields device. The main animosity in this thread is from the 5% nerf to nullsec ratting that was brought up (and should be discussed independent of this module).


Your completely ignoring the time to travel through the bubble it generates for one thing,

but that aside, no, I mean the time investment to grind through the isk the % has to work off of.
Fix Sov
#1382 - 2014-01-17 00:50:28 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Scenario 1: You are part of a big alliance ratting. Hostiles enter the area and are reported on intel channels. Warp to it and hit share all bounties, and suddenly there isn't very much left in the thing for hostiles to confiscate.

Or someone can get a new guy into an alliance and run around and pressing the "steal" button, and there's nothing that can be done about it once it does happen.

So why, pray tell, should I deploy it, instead of just not deploying it and not give a ****?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Scenario 2: You are are ratting solo in the system. A hostile enters system, one of you warps to the POS, swaps to an inty, warps to the thing and the hostile has 20 seconds to stop you from hitting share all and reclaiming your bounties. Sure, they may be in an inty that can warp to it too, but they will often fail to hold you as your "button pushing" inty is certainly stabbed.

Or a blue enters and you have to dock/POS up, run out to it in an interceptor and press share, every single time (or risk that guy being that guy), thus wasting even more time.

So why, pray tell, should I deploy it, instead of just not deploying it and not give a ****?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Scenario 3: A random solo neut routinely attempts to steal the loot. Next time they come into system, you surprise them with a direct counter to their ship. If they turn out to be a hotdropper, you can setup to hotdrop them back....

This is assuming the same guy'll be in the same ship, or won't bring friends. And, it ignores the fact that if you do try to defend the ESS, not only have you put 15% of your bounties on the line (a pitiable amount), you've also had to put more money on the line to defend those 15% just to try to get an extra 10% of a pitiable amount).

So why, pray tell, should I deploy it, instead of just not deploying it and not give a ****?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Scenario 4: You and 3 others are ratting in a system. One of you puts a noobship alt at zero on the beacon. If a hostile comes into system, he can instantly hit share all if anything lands on grid with the beacon.

So instead of multiboxing an anom, they should be multiboxing an anom and protecting the ESS, thus increasing the time between ticks?

So why, pray tell, should I deploy it, instead of just not deploying it and not give a ****?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1383 - 2014-01-17 00:51:34 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The main animosity in this thread is from the 5% nerf to nullsec ratting that was brought up (and should be discussed independent of this module).


as for this statement... no, it shouldn't be discussed seperately, as it is part and parcel with this module, since they intend it to be the 'stick' to help drive us to use the 'carrot'.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1384 - 2014-01-17 00:52:04 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

So it is ok to have one fo these collect bounties in a highsec system, but not in a nullsec system? That's hypocritical to ssay the least. (note: I actually would LOVE to see these implementable in lowsec and highsec too).


It's not about fairness, it's about if the mechanic works or not. In nullsec we dock up and stop ratting when neutrals come in system so this kind of mechanic will never work. I mean technically hisec mission/incursion runners could dock up and choose to give up 100% of their income when one of these is dropped like we would in nullsec but I'm guessing they won't opt to do that
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1385 - 2014-01-17 00:56:05 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

considering the time investment needed to make such a small % to pay off, that sounds like a hell of alot more hassle then it's worth. Quite honestly, the only place I see this thing being regularly used is by those uber large bloc null alliances which have total lockdowns for secure isk generation systems... ie, this makes life harder for the 'nubs' and easier for the ones the nubs already have issues with.

In short, CCP is showing favoritism?


The time investment to make a small % of pay off?
It takes you 60s to anchor this at the start of your farming session.

Anytime a hostile enters system, or when you are done ratting for the day, it takes you another 60 seconds to swap to an inty, warp on grid, and hit share all, AND scoop it to your cargo.

That's 120 seconds of your life. I'll double it in case your slow. So, in 4 minutes you make 5-10% more isk per tick. What's a good return on 4 minutes of your time? 75m isk / hour would mean this must net you 5 million isk to be worth your time. Gee, after 100 m isk in bounties, its paying that 75m isk / hr. At 200m isk in bounties, thats 150m isk per hour.


Sounds like bad game design.

Like adding a new, thoughtless click-fest to S&I to get a slightly improved yield, but a lesser yield if you don't do it at all.

Bad. Bad. Bad. Bad. Bad.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1386 - 2014-01-17 00:56:38 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Scenario 1: You are part of a big alliance ratting. Hostiles enter the area and are reported on intel channels. Warp to it and hit share all bounties, and suddenly there isn't very much left in the thing for hostiles to confiscate.

So every time someone reports hostiles in intel I spend 5 minutes warping to my ESS and slowboating through the bubble then slowboating back and warping out again? Sounds like a great way to lose my ratting ship (and waste the 6 minutes of ratting time the 10% bounty bonus has bought me).

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Scenario 2: You are are ratting solo in the system. A hostile enters system, one of you warps to the POS, swaps to an inty, warps to the thing and the hostile has 20 seconds to stop you from hitting share all and reclaiming your bounties. Sure, they may be in an inty that can warp to it too, but they will often fail to hold you as your "button pushing" inty is certainly stabbed.


Again, considering warp time I'm losing 2-3 minutes (or 50% of my bonus for deploying the module) and risking losing my button pushing interceptor.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Scenario 3: A random solo neut routinely attempts to steal the loot. Next time they come into system, you surprise them with a direct counter to their ship. If they turn out to be a hotdropper, you can setup to hotdrop them back....

And this involves how many accounts not ratting? Sat waiting around for a returning hostile who may never come? Sounds like a great fun thing to do in a computer game.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Scenario 4: You and 3 others are ratting in a system. One of you puts a noobship alt at zero on the beacon. If a hostile comes into system, he can instantly hit share all if anything lands on grid with the beacon.


Cool, so this account I'm dedicating to sitting on the beacon 100% of the time, theres no way I could use that same account to make more than the 10% extra bounties the 4 of us are hauling?


Do you have any idea how ridiculous your statement is, when you won't use the isk generating module because it could cost you a few minutes of your time and risks a button pushing stabbed inty being caught and destroyed? Especially since you DON'T EVEN HAVE TO USE IT.

Certainly there are more pressing things for you to gripe about, because your stance is unjustifiably absurd!
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1387 - 2014-01-17 00:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
Hate to break it to you, Gizznitt, but really, your last statement most directly applies to you, especially when your continueing to ignore some of the proposed facets of this new module when they're inconvenient to your proposed argument.
Fix Sov
#1388 - 2014-01-17 01:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix Sov
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Do you have any idea how ridiculous your statement is, when you won't use the isk generating module because it could cost you a few minutes of your time and risks a button pushing stabbed inty being caught and destroyed? Especially since you DON'T EVEN HAVE TO USE IT.

Certainly there are more pressing things for you to gripe about, because your stance is unjustifiably absurd!

Um. The module is supposed to "make your isk-making more efficient", and we're saying "it'll make it less efficient because of things we'd have to do to protect said investment (every time blues or neuts or reds appear in system, for example)" and ... it's unjustifiably absurd?

Okay there bud.

Edit: Oh, and as for the "you don't even have to use it" ... we're saying it's an absolute **** addition because of reasons x, y and z, and you're continually saying "well you don't have to use it!". Okay there bud, we won't, so it won't be a "small gang objective", so it'll be a complete waste of time and could've just been changed in its entirety with "we'll reduce payouts by 5% have fun with that" and wasted a fucktonne less developer/artist/etc time. Time which could've been spent fixing things like oh I dunno THE SOV SYSTEM.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1389 - 2014-01-17 01:05:26 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

So it is ok to have one fo these collect bounties in a highsec system, but not in a nullsec system? That's hypocritical to ssay the least. (note: I actually would LOVE to see these implementable in lowsec and highsec too).


It's not about fairness, it's about if the mechanic works or not. In nullsec we dock up and stop ratting when neutrals come in system so this kind of mechanic will never work. I mean technically hisec mission/incursion runners could dock up and choose to give up 100% of their income when one of these is dropped like we would in nullsec but I'm guessing they won't opt to do that


Why do you dock up and stop ratting when neutrals come in system? More specifically, why don't you form up into PvP ships and blap them out of system?

The answer is pretty simple:
1.) You are attempting to make isk, and doing this hinders your isk making.
2.) You don't want to risk ships.
3.) The locals (especially small gangs) really can't harm you and yours in any manner what-so-ever.

So, you blueball them, they move on, and you then continue to rat and make isk.

Do you really think this is good game design? That everything is peachy-king?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1390 - 2014-01-17 01:06:52 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Hate to break it to you, Gizznitt, but really, your last statement most directly applies to you, especially when your continueing to ignore some of the proposed facets of this new module when they're inconvenient to your proposed argument.


Please elaborate when I am ignoring about this new module.
Rarnak Ki
Twilight Hour Industries
Barely-Legal
#1391 - 2014-01-17 01:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rarnak Ki
The ESS is a terrible idea and it is unfathomable to me that CCP would release it. From a design perspective it is awful. I haven't seen anyone yet that can decisively tell whether this is supposed to be used by pirates or ratters. That confusion in itself will prevent its use almost universally.

If it is for the Ratters:

Right off the bat this "feature" nerfs ratting income 5% across the board. This indicates to me that it is designed to be used by ratters and the idea was that it would produce so much extra income that a universal nerf was required. It is either that or the designer just wanted to use the stick to entice ratters to use it. We don't play games to get the stick by the developers. We play for fun. Carrots are fun, not sticks. It seems to me that the authority for such a drastic change to one of the major sources of income in the game should not be held by every dev who wants to push through his or her pet project. Was there a comprehensive economic and behavioral study done on the effects of this? I seriously doubt it. It seems to me, with this feature, that CCP is flying blind.

5% nerf aside, there is a potential to increase ratting income by 5% from current levels. This happens after ratting for an hour or more at normal levels each time it is emptied. Then, if it survives and it not emptied, ratters finally see that 5% boost. Of course, the longer it is there, the more they risk. The risk increases over time and the benefit does not. More disincentive to use it.

Even then, the ratter now has to empty the tags from the ESS and haul them back to empire without dying just to get the isk that otherwise would be instantly added to his wallet. What happened to the idea that null sec should be sustainable on its own? Sustainability aside, this hauling takes more time and adds more risk, further taking away from any extra income this ESS might produce for him.

Conclusion: No ratter in the right mind would use this as a "benefit" to their ratting. What they get instead is an across the board 5% nerf in ratting income and then on top of that, pirates using this to steal more of their income and wantonly dropping these to further reduce their payouts to 80%.

If it is for Pirates:

I am a null sec pirate. I want to kill ratters. So I decide I am going to drop one of these ESS things in a ratting system and sit their cloaked until they come to kill it. Either that or I want to drop it to steal their income. They will know the instant I drop it. Will they a.) come fight me and try to kill it (because they do this a lot right?) b.) continue ratting at 80% of the payout and either allow me to take the isk or try and fight me for it at a later time (umm.. no) or C.) dock up or go rat in another system until I get bored and leave, after which they pop it, I get a red mark on my kb, and they continue on doing what they were doing, having only lost time.

What this actually does for me as a null sec pirate that preys on ratters, since this is a total nerf to ratting, is reduce the number of potential targets in null sec for me to prey on. This is exactly what I [i]don't/i] want.

Conclusion: I as a pirate will not bother with these just as I don't really bother with siphons. They may be used by groups who's job it is to move into a system to harass the locals for a while but that is it. It will not see widespread use outside of that. What it does instead is further reduce the shootable population of null sec.

So congratulations CCP! You have designed perhaps one of the worst features I have ever seen introduced into this game. It is a lose, lose, lose situation for every player. I have no idea what benefit you are seeing in it that we, the majority of players, are not. The ESS is going to make this game less fun for everyone.

If you want to build good deployables, that don't nerf both sides of the coin, I can think of several right off the top of my head, and I'm sure that others on here can do even better than me. Why not make deployable miners that sit in asteroid belts and slowly mine away? Deployable gate guns? Deployable reinforcement structures so that we can all get killmails when we reinforce things?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1392 - 2014-01-17 01:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
to begin with... the bubble it forms around itself, for another, that it takes time to farm the rats to generate the bounty payouts for the module to work off of. sure, some rats will give a 1m payout, but overall, it still takes time to farm them over and over again, and even in that case, it's only a 100k isk 'bonus' you can get for it...
and finally, the fact that the 5% bounty nerf is in essence part of this module, since it is intended to be CCP's 'stick' to provide us more reason to go for this presumed 'carrot'.

and for even further detail, please read Rarnok Ki's previous post.
Zircon Dasher
#1393 - 2014-01-17 01:11:27 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:

Or a blue enters and you have to dock/POS up, run out to it in an interceptor and press share, every single time (or risk that guy being that guy), thus wasting even more time.


So you and your corp already dock up when a blue enters system right? I mean.... you never know which blue is actually a safari alt.....

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1394 - 2014-01-17 01:16:21 UTC
also, side note... Deployable Gate Guns... YES! Peeps have been wanting these for YEARS!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1395 - 2014-01-17 01:16:45 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Do you have any idea how ridiculous your statement is, when you won't use the isk generating module because it could cost you a few minutes of your time and risks a button pushing stabbed inty being caught and destroyed? Especially since you DON'T EVEN HAVE TO USE IT.

Certainly there are more pressing things for you to gripe about, because your stance is unjustifiably absurd!

Um. The module is supposed to "make your isk-making more efficient", and we're saying "it'll make it less efficient because of things we'd have to do to protect said investment (every time blues or neuts or reds appear in system, for example)" and ... it's unjustifiably absurd?

Okay there bud.

Edit: Oh, and as for the "you don't even have to use it" ... we're saying it's an absolute **** addition because of reasons x, y and z, and you're continually saying "well you don't have to use it!". Okay there bud, we won't, so it won't be a "small gang objective", so it'll be a complete waste of time and could've just been changed in its entirety with "we'll reduce payouts by 5% have fun with that" and wasted a fucktonne less developer/artist/etc time. Time which could've been spent fixing things like oh I dunno THE SOV SYSTEM.


You can't change the past. This has already been developed, meaning CCP didn't fix the Sov System like you wanted, and the developer time spent on it has already been paid out.

So, you really have two options:

1.) Make suggestions to improve it so it gains utility within the current environment.
2.) Demand it be removed from game, giving you no value for the money that has already been spent on it.

I see no reason to go with option 2, especially since I see some utility in the module, even if it will only be used by niche groups.
Your mention of, it is a **** addition because of X, Y, and Z is a good step along path 1:
-- You risk too much for too little reward.
-- It is too easily/quickly accessed, making it hard to defend.
-- It isn't a small gang objective, because it is unreasonable to defend.

These were listed in Soni's feedback thread, something knows he has to work on. Can you point to other reasons why this is a **** idea? Can you see any ways this breaks the game? What would you like tweaked about the module to make it worth your time? That is information that is helpful and moves the concept along.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1396 - 2014-01-17 01:25:30 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

So it is ok to have one fo these collect bounties in a highsec system, but not in a nullsec system? That's hypocritical to ssay the least. (note: I actually would LOVE to see these implementable in lowsec and highsec too).


It's not about fairness, it's about if the mechanic works or not. In nullsec we dock up and stop ratting when neutrals come in system so this kind of mechanic will never work. I mean technically hisec mission/incursion runners could dock up and choose to give up 100% of their income when one of these is dropped like we would in nullsec but I'm guessing they won't opt to do that


Why do you dock up and stop ratting when neutrals come in system? More specifically, why don't you form up into PvP ships and blap them out of system?

The answer is pretty simple:
1.) You are attempting to make isk, and doing this hinders your isk making.
2.) You don't want to risk ships.
3.) The locals (especially small gangs) really can't harm you and yours in any manner what-so-ever.

So, you blueball them, they move on, and you then continue to rat and make isk.

Do you really think this is good game design? That everything is peachy-king?



No, people dock because of cynos, blobbing, and blops drops.
Fix Sov
#1397 - 2014-01-17 01:27:09 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
1.) Make suggestions to improve it so it gains utility within the current environment.
2.) Demand it be removed from game, giving you no value for the money that has already been spent on it.

Given the alternatives of having something that's absolute **** using every available metric imaginable, I'd rather have it removed from the game, yes.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Your mention of, it is a **** addition because of X, Y, and Z is a good step along path 1:
-- You risk too much for too little reward.
-- It is too easily/quickly accessed, making it hard to defend.
-- It isn't a small gang objective, because it is unreasonable to defend.

These were listed in Soni's feedback thread, something knows he has to work on. Can you point to other reasons why this is a **** idea? Can you see any ways this breaks the game? What would you like tweaked about the module to make it worth your time? That is information that is helpful and moves the concept along.

If it had been turned into something which was easily reinforcable by a small gang, and payouts would be something like 25% (or whatever) of today's payouts, and the module being online would turn it back into 100% payouts, but incapping it would offline it (and reduce payouts to 25%), then it would be a valuable "small gangs target". The current edition, where everyone, including blues or even the same people you're ratting with can **** you over, be it on purpose or by accident, all for a ludicrously small ROI, is ****. It's stupid, it's ****, and it should never have been thought of or developed in this fashion, and it cannot be salvaged into a good mechanic without scrapping more or less in its entirety.

And all of this has been mentioned repeatedly, and SoniClover has ignored it fully.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1398 - 2014-01-17 01:27:18 UTC

Good post, but a few things I want to nitpick:

Rarnak Ki wrote:
The ESS is a terrible idea and it is unfathomable to me that CCP would release it. From a design perspective it is awful. I haven't seen anyone yet that can decisively tell whether this is supposed to be used by pirates or ratters. That confusion in itself will prevent its use almost universally.

If it is for the Ratters:

Right off the bat this "feature" nerfs ratting income 5% across the board. This indicates to me that it is designed to be used by ratters and the idea was that it would produce so much extra income that a universal nerf was required. It is either that or the designer just wanted to use the stick to entice ratters to use it. We don't play games to get the stick by the developers. We play for fun. Carrots are fun, not sticks. It seems to me that the authority for such a drastic change to one of the major sources of income in the game should not be held by every dev who wants to push through his or her pet project. Was there a comprehensive economic and behavioral study done on the effects of this? I seriously doubt it. It seems to me, with this feature, that CCP is flying blind.


I'm not a fan of the 5% base nerf to income... and that should be addressed.

Rarnak Ki wrote:

5% nerf aside, there is a potential to increase ratting income by 5% from current levels. This happens after ratting for an hour or more at not 95%, but 80% of normal income. To balance out, a ratter will need to rat for 5 hours just to break even. 1 hour at 80% and 4 hours at 105%. This means that not only will the ratter have to rat for five hours before a profit is made, but the ESS has to both survive and not be emptied out during that time.

Even then, the ratter now has to empty the tags from the ESS and haul them back to empire without dying just to get the isk that otherwise would be instantly added to his wallet. What happened to the idea that null sec should be sustainable on its own? Sustainability aside, this hauling takes more time and adds more risk, further taking away from any extra income this ESS might produce for him.


This is incorrect. At anytime, you can hit "share bounties" to cash out and scoop up the module, thereby leaving you with an immediately profit. The isk is transfered DIRECTLY to the ratters who contributed, meaning there is no tag you have to return to highsec. In other words, you make a profit as long as someone else doesn't access it and hit "Take All".

Rarnak Ki wrote:

Conclusion: No ratter in the right mind would use this as a "benefit" to their ratting. What they get instead is an across the board 5% nerf in ratting income and then on top of that, pirates using this to steal more of their income and wantonly dropping these to further reduce their payouts to 80%.

Given your misunderstanding of the payout mechanics, I feel your conclusion if fallacious. The 5% nerf inratting income on top of it is sad, but that is a separate issue.



Rarnak Ki wrote:

If it is for Pirates:

I am a null sec pirate. I want to kill ratters. So I decide I am going to drop one of these ESS things in a ratting system and sit their cloaked until they come to kill it. Either that or I want to drop it to steal their income. They will know the instant I drop it. Will they a.) come fight me and try to kill it (because they do this a lot right?) b.) continue ratting at 80% of the payout and either allow me to take the isk or try and fight me for it at a later time (umm.. no) or C.) dock up or go rat in another system until I get bored and leave, after which they pop it, I get a red mark on my kb, and they continue on doing what they were doing, having only lost time.

What this actually does for me as a null sec pirate that preys on ratters, since this is a total nerf to ratting, is reduce the number of potential targets in null sec for me to prey on. This is exactly what I [i]don't/i] want.

Conclusion: I as a pirate will not bother with these just as I don't really bother with siphons. They may be used by groups who's job it is to move into a system to harass the locals for a while but that is it. It will not see widespread use outside of that. What it does instead is further reduce the shootable population of null sec.

So congratulations CCP! You have designed perhaps one of the worst features I have ever seen introduced into this game. It is a lose, lose, lose situation for every player. I have no idea what benefit you are seeing in it that we, the majority of players, are not. The ESS is going to make this game less fun for everyone.

If you want to build good deployables, that don't nerf both sides of the coin, I can think of several right off the top of my head, and I'm sure that others on here can do even better than me. Why not make deployable miners that sit in asteroid belts and slowly mine away? Deployable gate guns? Deployable reinforcement structures so that we can all get killmails when we reinforce things?


This isn't for pirates directly. Its benefits are specifically setup for the Ratters to utilize, and a pirate may benefit from this by taking the ratters isk assuming they can get to it before the ratters do.
Zircon Dasher
#1399 - 2014-01-17 01:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Rarnak Ki wrote:


5% nerf aside, there is a potential to increase ratting income by 5% from current levels. This happens after ratting for an hour or more at not 95%, but 80% of normal income. To balance out, a ratter will need to rat for 5 hours just to break even. 1 hour at 80% and 4 hours at 105%. This means that not only will the ratter have to rat for five hours before a profit is made, but the ESS has to both survive and not be emptied out during that time.



Except that you get 100% of your current ISK the second it activates. 80% will be in your wallet and 20% in the EES. The 1% level ups are over and above that amount. According to SoniClover 'several' people ratting will max out the bonus in about 30min. Assuming 20min ticks that means about 2 ticks before you are at 105%. Assuming you get an extra 2mil/tick/character that means it should take about 1-1.5 hours to break even. EDIT: Assuming 3-4 characters

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1400 - 2014-01-17 01:31:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Quote:
During the last 90 days 72% of the generated by NPC kills ISK came from the nullsec area.

That's actually staggeringly huge Shocked
Not particularly, since it's the only significant ISK faucet in null. Last we got any numbers on it, the system coughed up about 900bn ISK daily in the form of bounties — that would mean ~650bn came from null.

Compare this to the total injection of roughly 2 trillion ISK daily. A third of that is null bounties; nearly two thirds come from highsec ventures (the only other large separate post was ~250bn from w-space).

The most recent figures I am aware of are the figures from March 2012 to March 2013. If you have more recent figures please reference them.

These figures show an average of about 50 Trillion a month isk Faucet.
Of which Bounties (I.E. NPC kills) are averaging 30-31 trillion.

So Bounties are about a Trillion a day, out of 1.66. Trillion a day.

Meaning Null Bounties are 72% of 1 Trillion a day. Or 720 Billion a day. 43% of the total isk Faucet in the game.
Low & High Bounties (Remember Low sec exists, we have no separation of that figure from high at this point) Account for a further 280 Billion. 17%
WH Space averages about 330 Billion a day. (10 Trillion a month) 20%
Incursions average about 167 Billion a day. (5 Trillion a month average, though there was a slight growth trend near the end, but that may be at it's limit, lack of figures to extrapolate further) Or a mere 10%. 1/4 of what Null Bounties generate. Guess we just debunked that myth. Though it is fair to say High Sec will account for most incursion income.
Then rewards, ship insurance, & NPC sales of items like overseer effects account for the last 10%. Again we have no separation from Null, Low & High in these figures. (Hello insured dreads)

So, lets stop the rubbish that high sec is an Isk Faucet and null is all innocent shall we. Null is the single largest isk faucet region in the game. Even if we attribute all the rewards, insurance & say Low Sec earned no bounties (Which would be patently false) it still doesn't add up to as much as Null generates.

Does this justify a nerf to bounties. Who knows. Maybe, Maybe not. But if it does, I agree, they should say so with a fresh batch of economic figures to show it. And not tie it in with the ESS. The only income 'nerf' that should come attached to the ESS itself is the 'at risk' part of the income.