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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Fix Sov
#1221 - 2014-01-16 17:47:55 UTC
Except it won't be a "small scale conflict driver".

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

greiton starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1222 - 2014-01-16 17:49:43 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Trust me, I vocally support revamping Sov. I want a use it or have it easily taken from you game play. I want some smaller-scale, objectives, etc. But that doesn't mean the ESS is a fail concept. It can still be a small scale conflict driver, which is a very good thing!



how, what benefit is there for someone to put it up themselves, and why would they let is stay up after you leave.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1223 - 2014-01-16 17:50:33 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Trust me, I vocally support revamping Sov. I want a use it or have it easily taken from you game play. I want some smaller-scale, objectives, etc. But that doesn't mean the ESS is a fail concept. It can still be a small scale conflict driver, which is a very good thing!

the conflict just needs to not be "this ****** in our alliance put up an ESS, kick him out"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1224 - 2014-01-16 17:51:00 UTC
Have SBU SOV provide a 25% increase to bounties generated in system then.

Problem solved, now you have a reason to fight for SOV and a reason to have it without introduction of a dumb idea.
Vereesa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1225 - 2014-01-16 17:52:33 UTC
I get the point of the ESS is to promote more reactions from people living in null to small gangs flying through. I just think at the moment it provides not enough benefit to the people using it compared to the invading fleets (see single interceptor scooping all of the tags before any defence fleet could feasably respond by putting a disco ship in one of the structures, because lets face it that's the only way you're going to catch him now).

Instead, it should probably be re-worked like this. You put one of these mmodules down and it gives a 10-15% bonus to all bounties in the system, paid with the regular bounty payouts. But, if it is destroyed (not taken down), it disrupts the bounties in the system down to 75-80% (or less, idk) for a period of six-twelve hours.

Give the thing the EHP of a small capital ship so it takes a good ten to fifteen minutes to kill with a moderately sized gang (to give the defenders time to form up- with smaller alliances especially) and can't be abused by your random solo bomber and it gives a big incentive for people to come out and fight.

I wouldn't reccomend a very long penalty time though, otherwise you'll have gangs coming through in an alliance's dead hours and punishing people for sleeping on a regular basis.

Also I don't see the reasoning behind a 5% cut in nullsec bounties. If there was a valid economic reason it would be OK, but at the moment it just seems to be 'we want to make people in nullsec feel bad about how they play in the sandbox'.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1226 - 2014-01-16 17:56:41 UTC
Vereesa wrote:
But, if it is destroyed (not taken down), it disrupts the bounties in the system down to 75-80% (or less, idk) for a period of six-twelve hours.


Go into enemy ratting system. Drop ESS. Destroy ESS.

Now you nerfed all their income for 6 - 12 hours.

I can't say this sounds like a solid idea.
Baljos Arnjak
Dark Praetorian Order
#1227 - 2014-01-16 17:57:10 UTC
I just want to take another tack with the ESS.

Think about what this will mean for nullsec ratter bots! MUAHAHAHAHA!

See someone botting the local rats? Put up an ESS and let him be (you'd have a hard time catching them anyway), you just stole 20% of his revenue for zero work and maybe even a bonus! Come back a couple hours later and collect a nice pile of cash, assuming nobody beats you to it, but still, there's places in null where the span of time between pilots entering the system is hours.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1228 - 2014-01-16 17:58:10 UTC
Muffet McStrudel wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


I don't give a rats ass about the isk it drops. I want the locals to form up and fight.

In the current environment, if I roll into the area with 3 thorax, a sabre, and 2 inties, the locals have no reason what so ever to undock or leave their POS. The only conflict we can instigate when raiding their territory is catching a ratter, and that's why small gang PvP is leaving nullsec.



So you roll in 6 v 1 and wonder why people wouldn't undock to fight you in PVE fitted ships? Don't be stupid. If you want easy ganks go to low sec, then you can 10 v 1 pod everything coming through the gate.

I really could care less if small gangs leave 0.0. There's already a place for them, a little sandbox called low-sec where you can gank to your heart's desire and play griefing butt pirate all day long.

Spare us all the crying. Null sec provides for Sov warfare, big ships and big risks and low sec provides for ganks. That's just how it is, as well as it should be.

As it has been stated, as soon as you come in system all activity is likely to stop anyway. Go ahead and place that ESS. As soon as you leave, it's going to get blasted. Alliances aren't going to install them because THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE IN DOING SO. ANY FOOL CAN ROB THEM, ALLIANCE OR OTHERWISE. THEY PROVIDE SMALL PENALTY AND SMALLER REWARD.

The entire idea behind this module is ill-conceived and just plain dumb.


1.) If they deploy an ESS in system, they know they will have to defend it. If you are a lone ratter, I doubt you'd deploy it. And those that do, I'd suspect would keep combat ships close at hand so they can defend it.

2.) I didn't say I wanted a 6v1 gank. There could be 20 pilots in system, and quite often everyone will get safe. Furthermore, numbers aren't everything in this game. The gang I listed would be counterable by 2-3 BS's and BC's. That's one of the reasons I'd role light, is so an opponent wouldn't need 12 people to fight me.

3.) Nullsec is for more than Sov warfare and big ships, and you're a troll of you continue to state otherwise.
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1229 - 2014-01-16 17:58:29 UTC
For the small gangs community, please detail the specifics of how this will get fights that you are not already able to get? I'm pretty certain that pages of posts have happened underlining how this WILL NOT get more fights, at least not the fights you are looking for. Ever.

Quick recap:
1. Not enough risk v. reward incentive to begin with.
2. Your hostile ESS will be ignored, since while you are in system, no one will be ratting.
3. You could have dropped an SBU.

There will be groups that already form up Home Defense and fight small gangs. There are groups that don't. I am still failing to see what the ESS will be doing to help change the current status quo in a meaningful fashion.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1230 - 2014-01-16 18:02:44 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:
For the small gangs community, please detail the specifics of how this will get fights that you are not already able to get? I'm pretty certain that pages of posts have happened underlining how this WILL NOT get more fights, at least not the fights you are looking for. Ever.

Quick recap:
1. Not enough risk v. reward incentive to begin with.
2. Your hostile ESS will be ignored, since while you are in system, no one will be ratting.
3. You could have dropped an SBU.

There will be groups that already form up Home Defense and fight small gangs. There are groups that don't. I am still failing to see what the ESS will be doing to help change the current status quo in a meaningful fashion.

small gang FC here, this won't change anything, since most null ppl will not anchor it, and putting one ourself is pointless, local will just not rat or blow it up the second we leave.

pointless ESS is pointless
greiton starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1231 - 2014-01-16 18:06:55 UTC
why do these small gangs think they should pose a serious non-ignorable threat to groups over 5000X their size.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1232 - 2014-01-16 18:08:08 UTC
I like the idea behind this module, but it's badly implemented.

The Tears Must Flow

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1233 - 2014-01-16 18:10:01 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:
For the small gangs community, please detail the specifics of how this will get fights that you are not already able to get? I'm pretty certain that pages of posts have happened underlining how this WILL NOT get more fights, at least not the fights you are looking for. Ever.

Quick recap:
1. Not enough risk v. reward incentive to begin with.
2. Your hostile ESS will be ignored, since while you are in system, no one will be ratting.
3. You could have dropped an SBU.

There will be groups that already form up Home Defense and fight small gangs. There are groups that don't. I am still failing to see what the ESS will be doing to help change the current status quo in a meaningful fashion.


1.) I acknowledge the risk is imbalanced: It is too quickly accessed (meaning the locals don't have time to defend it), and its bonus is negligible compared to the upfront bounty reduction, especially in regards to the difficulties defending it. However, these can be resolved as ccp tweaks the access time and the payout rewards.

2.) You would only put up a hostile ESS in a bot's ratting system (until the computer programs become smart enough to recognize and destroy them). The only way this concept works (in its current form) is if the ESS's benefits make it worthwhile for you to deploy for yourself (see point 1).

3.) SBU's are not small gang entities, and not relevant to this discussion.

How does this get you fights? It encourages the locals to form up and fight you to defend their ESS bounty pool. It also gives them a limited time for response which limits the magnitude of their response. Finally it has small rewards, which means any hostiles accessing the ESS for isk will be encouraged to do so in small, engage-able numbers.
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1234 - 2014-01-16 18:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I don't give a rats ass about the isk it drops. I want the locals to form up and fight.

In the current environment, if I roll into the area with 3 thorax, a sabre, and 2 inties, the locals have no reason what so ever to undock or leave their POS. The only conflict we can instigate when raiding their territory is catching a ratter, and that's why small gang PvP is leaving nullsec.


I'm curious how you think ESS would change this.

If locals aren't deploying one, you don't have anything to shoot or rob. Your desire to be able to use them to draw out ratters to kill is enough reason for the locals to not anchor one regardless of potential payout. This leaves your only option to spend 30mil to anchor one yourself. You now have a fixed point in space that YOU have to defend. Those ratters you wanted to kill are still docked up, while the other people in the region know exactly where you are, what you have, and where to go to kill you.

At this point you have a couple of options.

You can camp the ESS. Your mere presence in local is keeping the ratters docked up, so you're not hurting them any more with the ESS than you would by cloaking and going to bed. Defense fleets in the area may come after you, but they're coming after you, not the ESS, you can achieve the same result more effectively simply by camping a gate. About the only edge you get is that you have more warning before potential hostile reinforcements arrive at your location.

You can abandon the ESS. You leave system with the ESS up, the ratters wait until you've left the area, undock, spend a couple minutes killing the ESS, then go back to ratting.

In the end the ESS doesn't add anything that roaming fleets don't already do by their mere presence.

Edit:
Imagine there's two adjacent regions of nullsec that are similar in every meaningful way. Except one of these regions bans ESS, the other has ratters using them in every system. Which region do you choose to terrorize? This is why nullsec alliances will ban their use.
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1235 - 2014-01-16 18:13:02 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


1.) If they deploy an ESS in system, they know they will have to defend it. If you are a lone ratter, I doubt you'd deploy it. And those that do, I'd suspect would keep combat ships close at hand so they can defend it.

2.) I didn't say I wanted a 6v1 gank. There could be 20 pilots in system, and quite often everyone will get safe. Furthermore, numbers aren't everything in this game. The gang I listed would be counterable by 2-3 BS's and BC's. That's one of the reasons I'd role light, is so an opponent wouldn't need 12 people to fight me.

3.) Nullsec is for more than Sov warfare and big ships, and you're a troll of you continue to state otherwise.



1) ESS WILL NOT GET DEPLOYED BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO ADVANTAGE FOR AN ALLIANCE TO DO SO. Why are you having a hard time with this? The economic incentive simply is NOT THERE. If a hostile installs one, then ratting will have stopped anyway until the hostile leaves, at which point fleet will form up for yet another null sec quickie structure grind. Said pvper will then be out 30M isk and crying to CCP about how these structures don't have enough hit points or how CCP should stop letting alliances form 40 man fleets to take them out fast.

2) Doesn't matter what you WANT. That's what EVE IS. Small gang warfare is prison **** warfare and I could probably look through many KB and see 4-6+ to 1 versus the target. THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS. You know it, and so do I. Stop trying to pretend that small gang warfare is somehow more "fair" than SOV warfare or more sophisticated or intricate. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's brutal, quick and usually for the poor man.

3) Prove me wrong. What null sec structures can I deploy in low sec? But you can gank in low and null sec can't you? Null sec is SOV fleets and warfare as I stated because you can't do it anywhere else. Does that mean I care if your frigate gang shows up for easy ganks? Not at all. But on the other hand, you should not be a "threat" to alliance space as your size is small. You want the advantages of being a big "threat" while maintaining small gang size and it just doesn't work that way.

It would be like trying to rationalize that Somali Pirates near Madagascar should not have to engage the U.S. 5th fleet, yet still be classified a major threat.

You strike me as someone that doesn't understand null sec or capitalism very well.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1236 - 2014-01-16 18:14:53 UTC
I understand what CCP SoniClover is saying, they need to be careful about null sec income because the income from the most used null sec pve activity (anom ratting) is high and it's pure isk.

No problem there, that just confirms something some of us hav ebeen saying for a long time: you CAN'T just "buff null sec" because if you do you screw up the economy.

The problem is that allainces are gonna ban it's use because of its potential to cause INTERNAL conflicts (ie headaches an allaince leadership don't need when they're trying to figure out how to beat slowcats lol) so that potential +5% is 100% useless.

Solo raiders won't use them because all it means is getting 30 mil isk popped when afk cloaking is free.

So forth and so on. I hope there are some serious deliberations going in inside CCP (and between CCP and the CSM) about this instead of them walking around the office high fiving each other saying "you ticked off a lot of peole and prompted a threadnaught, it must be working!", lol
Fix Sov
#1237 - 2014-01-16 18:15:51 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
How does this get you fights? It encourages the locals to form up and fight you to defend their ESS bounty pool.

Implying it'll be deployed by anyone who's actually living in a system, and not by someone "just passing by".

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1238 - 2014-01-16 18:17:01 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
why do these small gangs think they should pose a serious non-ignorable threat to groups over 5000X their size.

Well they already can. It's just that they want to be able to do it in cruisers. A dozen dudes willing to drop really expensive stuff to make up for their lack of numbers can wreak plenty of havoc. Superior numbers are countered by superior ships and comps, after all.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1239 - 2014-01-16 18:17:12 UTC
Muffet McStrudel wrote:

You strike me as someone that doesn't understand null sec or capitalism very well.


This thread is full of people (including CCP devs) who don't understand nullsec very well and thats 95% of the problem
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1240 - 2014-01-16 18:18:24 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
why do these small gangs think they should pose a serious non-ignorable threat to groups over 5000X their size.


There are different types of threats in the world:

A 10-man terrorist cell doesn't pose a threat to the sovereignty of a country, but it can cause a ruckus if they hijack some planes and crash them into a few skyscrapers.

Why should your 5000 man group NOT have to worry about small groups roaming their territory? You think shooting some structures and planting a TCU should give you a safety zone? Get real!