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Fix the drone Damage multipliers!!!
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#81 - 2011-11-24 07:05:57 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Only Exp drones would be "nerfed" by 13% (ie 1.15/1.3)
EM drones would be buffed by the same amount.

Therm and Kin drones would be untouched - Your Ogres, Hammerheads, Hobgoblins, Sentries, etc would be completely unchanged.

Drones as a whole don't get nerfed, the Exp drones get nerfed.


Read this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=403720#post403720

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-11-24 07:16:44 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Only Exp drones would be "nerfed" by 13% (ie 1.15/1.3)
EM drones would be buffed by the same amount.

Therm and Kin drones would be untouched - Your Ogres, Hammerheads, Hobgoblins, Sentries, etc would be completely unchanged.

Drones as a whole don't get nerfed, the Exp drones get nerfed.



No one would use EM drones, still its a plugged hole, and you are making the drones that people DO use less likely, because as anti-tackle only speed matters.

I spend a lot of time in ceptors, and outrunning warriors isn't terribly challenging, I may have to cook the MWD for a few pulses till I shoot them down but I can mitigate the damage long enough to manage that usually, its rare I get chased off a tackle by anything not a Recon or Loki....

...and you are talking about nerfing the best drone to chase me off that tackle.
Lili Lu
#83 - 2011-11-24 14:55:00 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Mal, I don't know why you would upset the apparent CCP intended progression table by leapfrogging kinetic/caldari drones toward explo/minmatar. Why not keep the same progression but tweak it along the lines you suggested.

I like the table as it appears to have been intended. The gradation is fine imo as long as it would be consistent, and maybe more bifurcated than evenly spaced. If people worry that it would be a nerf to drones and Gallente in general then just tweak the stats a bit.

Without running the exact math (not my forte) the damage multipliers etc could be grouped/bifurcated although not exactly. It could be progressed more like

1.6 1.900 2.8 Thermal/Gallente
1.5 2.100 3.0 Kinetic/Caldari

1.3 2.500 4.0 EM/Amarr
1.2 2.700 4.2 Explosive/Minmatar

Amarr/em drones are already about fast enough to catch fast frigs, it's just that why bother since their damage co-efficient and tracking is worse comapred to explo/min drones. Similarly Caldari dornes could be flattened closer to Gallente drones.

This would help both kin/cal and em/amarr drones get used more. They might not be the best at their end, but considering typical target resist profiles they might have some pvp advantage for being used. Sure therm drones would have more damage, but that typically lower base kinetic resist on armor would present a reason to consider caldari drones. Similarly, if the target is really fast, the still better tracking and speed of the explo drones would leave them a role, but you could consider the em drones to try to attack the em shield hole if a ship had not fortified it.

A progression like this might actually be a slight buff to drone use and Gallente in general.

edit- it might simultaneous buff acolytes and warriors. If a ceptor or dram can no longer figure on warriors only being his enemy he can't just further load the highest base explo resist with an explo resist mod or rig, he would have to consider an em resist mod or rig focus. This would have all sorts of effects on ship weapon damage as well. But I've always felt that pvp should be an omni resist game unless you have definite intel that the enemy fleet is all using lasers or hybrids (could happen) or would prefer it's kinetic missile bonus, etc

2nd edit- thinking more about this, it might lead to mixed drone groupings. Instead of just throwing out 5 warriors in pvp you might go 3/2 warriors plus 2/3 acolytes in your light drone grouping, which imo would be a good thing. Similar mix of therm kinetic heavy drones perhaps instead of just 5 ogres. PVE drone gorupings would be largely unchanged, which is ok.

quoting myself because noone responded Sad So if you think warriors are easy to outrun then perhaps make those speeds for acolyte and warriors 4.3 and 4.4 respectively. Having more than one set of drones with ability to perform a job is a buff to drones. Leaving the present even progression and anomalous placement of em drones in place is validly criticized by the op.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2011-11-24 15:21:00 UTC
GavinCapacitor wrote:
Its almost as if... wait for it... amarr are not good with drones! and that is the way things are supposed to be!

Why do you assume that there should be a direct correlation between two sets of numbers you just picked seemingly at random? I think your autism is showing, bro.

You're bad at Eve and at posting.

Amarr have the second largest drone bays and the second highest number of drone focused ships.
Lili Lu
#85 - 2011-11-24 15:33:15 UTC
Voith wrote:
GavinCapacitor wrote:
Its almost as if... wait for it... amarr are not good with drones! and that is the way things are supposed to be!

Why do you assume that there should be a direct correlation between two sets of numbers you just picked seemingly at random? I think your autism is showing, bro.

You're bad at Eve and at posting.

Amarr have the second largest drone bays and the second highest number of drone focused ships.

Guys Guys P This is not about race or faction drone abilities or stats. Jeebus, forget the rp affiliations and look at it from a wholistic perspective of what's good for the game.

Having two sets of drones, I'll call them kineitc and em (and not Caldari or Amarr) underperform in relation to thermal and explo (and not Gallente or Minmatar) is stupid and could be fixed. Especially when there is absolutely no reason to use any em drones except Curators, which are sentries and are very well balanced and all used.

The op proposed a simple single swap of one stat solution of bringing consistency to the progression in all stats accross the damage types of scout drones. Unfortunately others have pointed out this could result in a net nerf to drones as a weapon system overall.

I would like a focus on doing both what the op suggested, some consistency to the differences that wouldn't leave any drone types unused and worthless while resulting in a preservation or slight buff to the utility of drones in general.
Aamrr
#86 - 2011-11-24 17:53:08 UTC
Current Situation

Drone______ D-Mod___ Tracking___Speed

Hobgoblin___1.6x_____1.815____2.8 km/s
Hornet ______1.45x____2.1______3.2 km/s
Acolyte______1.15x___2.47_____3.8 km/s
Warrior______1.3x_____2.7______4.2 km/s

We can approach this in one of two ways. The simpler way is to simply swap the values, as had been suggested, like this.

Drone______ D-Mod___ Tracking___Speed

Hobgoblin___1.6x_____1.815____2.8 km/s
Hornet ______1.45x____2.1______3.2 km/s
Acolyte______1.3x___2.47_____3.8 km/s
Warrior______1.15x_____2.7______4.2 km/s

Since Liang seems all panicky about the potential horrors of nerfing drones -- particularly warriors, a drone small enough to be used by all races -- we can approach this by buffing the unused drones, like so.

Drone______ D-Mod___ Tracking___Speed

Hobgoblin___1.75x_____1.815____2.8 km/s
Hornet ______1.6x____2.1______3.2 km/s
Acolyte______1.45x___2.47_____3.8 km/s
Warrior______1.3x_____2.7______4.2 km/s

The never-used Amarrian drones get a significant buff, from 1.15 to 1.45. The comparatively underused hornets and hobgoblins get a more modest buff, from 1.45 to 1.6 and 1.6 to 1.75, respectively.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-11-24 17:58:31 UTC
Ok, so basically you guys are saying that the fastest drone is the most important drone, and to lower its damage is a nerf...


Well then lets make the damage go like so:

Hobgoblin___1.75x_____1.815____2.8 km/s
Hornet ______1.6x____2.1______3.2 km/s
Acolyte______1.45x___2.47_____3.8 km/s
Warrior______1.3x_____2.7______4.2 km/s

As it is now, it starts at 1.6, and lowers in increments of 0.15 down to the acolyte's 1.15.
It appears from the progression of the other stats, that for the warrior to be balanced, it should have the lowest damage of the 4 drones, as it has the highest speed and tracking.

If you're not willing to lower the warrior to bring it into balance with the other drones, then buff the other drones to bring them into balance.
Essentially the Hob and Hornet get a 0.15 damage multiplier bonus, while the acolyte gets a 0.3 bonus
(And do the same for the meds and heavies)
Aamrr
#88 - 2011-11-24 18:20:53 UTC
Those last two posts look eerily similar... Big smile
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#89 - 2011-11-24 23:46:03 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Those last two posts look eerily similar... Big smile

They're both a bit idealistic IMO. Nobody (not even domi pilots) tries to theorycraft which drone they're going to use so thoroughly that they'd go and choose the em/kinetic drones. If you want damage, you'll still take the thermal ones, and if you want speed, you'll still take the explosive ones.

Best way to fix the issue is just change the speed/dps of the underused drones so that they match the good ones; kinetic matching the stats of explosive and em matching the stats of thermal (or the other way around, whatever)

That said, as someone who loves his ogres, I wouldn't mind seeing a straight up damage buff at all Pirate, but I highly doubt it would change anything with regards to which drones people use.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#90 - 2011-11-25 00:58:35 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Ok, so basically you guys are saying that the fastest drone is the most important drone, and to lower its damage is a nerf...


Well then lets make the damage go like so:

Hobgoblin___1.75x_____1.815____2.8 km/s
Hornet ______1.6x____2.1______3.2 km/s
Acolyte______1.45x___2.47_____3.8 km/s
Warrior______1.3x_____2.7______4.2 km/s

As it is now, it starts at 1.6, and lowers in increments of 0.15 down to the acolyte's 1.15.
It appears from the progression of the other stats, that for the warrior to be balanced, it should have the lowest damage of the 4 drones, as it has the highest speed and tracking.

If you're not willing to lower the warrior to bring it into balance with the other drones, then buff the other drones to bring them into balance.
Essentially the Hob and Hornet get a 0.15 damage multiplier bonus, while the acolyte gets a 0.3 bonus
(And do the same for the meds and heavies)


Its not a bad approach but it won't fix the core problem you're observing. Tracking literally has almost literally nothing to do with drones so you're still looking at people making this choice:
- Fastest and less DPS
- Most DPS and slowest

In addition, tts probably best to break drones up into two categories - heavy hitters (EM, Thermal balanced around current Thermal drones) and fast hitters (Kin, Exp balanced around current Exp drones).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#91 - 2011-11-25 02:13:03 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Those last two posts look eerily similar... Big smile

Just sayin'
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#92 - 2011-11-25 02:25:04 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
GavinCapacitor wrote:
Its almost as if... wait for it... amarr are not good with drones! and that is the way things are supposed to be!

Why do you assume that there should be a direct correlation between two sets of numbers you just picked seemingly at random? I think your autism is showing, bro.


It's almost like how Gallante are not good with guns! Or how you're not good with rubbing 2 brain cells together. Working as intended, right?Lol



Goose Man you made me shoot soda out my nose. Wining quote for this thread right here.! Big smile

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#93 - 2011-11-25 02:30:19 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
I believe the tracking speed is meant to match the orbit velocity.

Orbit Velocity, highest to lowest:
Warrior/II- 750/900
Acolyte/II- 650/780
Hornet/II- 600/720
Hobgob/II- 550/660

Tracking speed, highest to lowest:
Warrior/II- 2.7/3.24
Acolyte/II- 2.47/2.964
Hornet/II- 2.1/2.52
Hobgob/II- 1.815/2.178



Well yes this is what he was saying but also saying that the fastest and fastest tracking Drone's should do the smallest amount of dmg and the second fastest should get the second to lowest dmg stat.

And alot of drone users fell it should be that way too.

So it's not like one guy got epselpse or something here and just pulled it out of his ars. It just makes Logical progretion to most of us.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Lili Lu
#94 - 2011-11-25 03:17:08 UTC
Ok I think I see what a couple of you are doing. You're trying to make the fast drones, those that would be sent after shield tanking fast ships both play against the highest resists. And you're the ones pretending to worry about drone nerf from all this?

No, keep the present progression. EM and Explo would be the fast drones. No free lunch to a fast shield tank. Likewise the high damage drones should not both be stuck on armor's highest native resists. Instead heavy armor tanking ships should have to beef up their kinetic and thermal resists. Now that is a true buff to droneage, and a necessity for ships to not be lazy with just slapping on invulns or eanms.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2011-11-25 13:28:35 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Ok I think I see what a couple of you are doing. You're trying to make the fast drones, those that would be sent after shield tanking fast ships both play against the highest resists. And you're the ones pretending to worry about drone nerf from all this?

No, keep the present progression. EM and Explo would be the fast drones. No free lunch to a fast shield tank. Likewise the high damage drones should not both be stuck on armor's highest native resists. Instead heavy armor tanking ships should have to beef up their kinetic and thermal resists. Now that is a true buff to droneage, and a necessity for ships to not be lazy with just slapping on invulns or eanms.



Well that gets a little balled up when you are dealing with T2 resists, but yeah.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#96 - 2011-11-25 17:30:13 UTC
Quote:
What IMO *really* doesn't make sense is that the "drone race" drone is the slowest


Did you miss the bit about them hitting significantly harder than the other types? It's all tradeoffs. Only the Amarr ones seem seriously out of whack.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#97 - 2011-11-26 05:28:02 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
What IMO *really* doesn't make sense is that the "drone race" drone is the slowest


Did you miss the bit about them hitting significantly harder than the other types? It's all tradeoffs. Only the Amarr ones seem seriously out of whack.


You've actually found a use for the Caldari drones? Really?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aamrr
#98 - 2011-11-26 05:46:18 UTC
Last I checked, they were actually more effective against the majority of NPC factions than Gallente drones, even neglecting the improved speed and tracking modifiers.

Not really relevant to a PvP discussion, but I figured it was worth pointing out.
Teh Frog
Exotic Connections
#99 - 2011-11-26 07:19:12 UTC
Better yet apply ships with drone bonuses to all drones, not just damage.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2011-11-26 13:55:03 UTC
The idea of a progression in drone damage, speed etc. doesn't really seem to accomplish anything. KINETIC drones aren't used despite having the intended damage multiplier.

I liked this idea best:

KINETIC drones are made identical to THERMAL drones except in damage type.
EM drones are made identical to EXPLOSIVE drones except in damage type.