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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1161 - 2014-01-16 16:18:19 UTC
Funless Saisima wrote:
Tahnil wrote:


ESS doesn‘t require you to fight in your PvE fit. Not at all. PvE ratters should be able to dock / POS up and switch to suitable combat ships, maybe even call for reinforcements from nearby systems. (That‘s one of my main concern with the current mechanic of the ESS. A fixed timer doesn‘t cut it. Depending on the situation it is either too short or too long. Right now it‘s too short. ESS can be robbed long before the defenders are able to react. Therefore the „take all“ option should be a payment over time, not a single payment after a timer. For example the attacker could get one tag for every x seconds that he‘s willing to wait at the ESS module.)


If someone actually makes a ping to defend an ESS, they will get laughed at and have their ping privileges removed.


I‘m not talking about forming a fleet of 200 CFC Dominixes. We‘re talking about small gang warfare here. Maybe alliances would have to adapt a little to the fact that there is a very local problem. Maybe you would need local pings then. I am sure CFC IT will be able to come up with some solution ;-)
Billybob Sheepshooter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1162 - 2014-01-16 16:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Billybob Sheepshooter
Tahnil wrote:

I see it different. In the current state of nullsec, a roaming gang of 5-20 people can‘t do **** to provoke a fight. .


Head over to any of the major staging systems in nullsec, and you will get a fight. But you will probably die, and then you will cry that you got blobbed.
And you will eventually blame everything under the sun instead of realizing the inevitable fact.

This inevitable fact is that you are dumb.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1163 - 2014-01-16 16:22:56 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Foo Chan wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:


If a forced fight is what you are looking for a module already exists for this, its called an SBU.


Damn right.


This is the wrong scale....

A small gang can't attack a POS, they can't deploy and/or defend an SBU... This game DESPERATELY needs small gang oriented objectives. Something that the locals find worth defending, and any small (<10 cruisers) can achieve. Otherwise, your small gangs are relegated to "hunting ratters" which safe up and don't fight because they have no reason to fight.

Well what kind of money are we talking here? A structure for 30 mil and how much isk in the rat bounty pot, another 30? Maybe people will get four or five friends together and put cruisers, fitting, and pods on the line for that amount of isk, but I doubt it.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1164 - 2014-01-16 16:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Tahnil wrote:
Funless Saisima wrote:
Tahnil wrote:


ESS doesn‘t require you to fight in your PvE fit. Not at all. PvE ratters should be able to dock / POS up and switch to suitable combat ships, maybe even call for reinforcements from nearby systems. (That‘s one of my main concern with the current mechanic of the ESS. A fixed timer doesn‘t cut it. Depending on the situation it is either too short or too long. Right now it‘s too short. ESS can be robbed long before the defenders are able to react. Therefore the „take all“ option should be a payment over time, not a single payment after a timer. For example the attacker could get one tag for every x seconds that he‘s willing to wait at the ESS module.)


If someone actually makes a ping to defend an ESS, they will get laughed at and have their ping privileges removed.


I‘m not talking about forming a fleet of 200 CFC Dominixes. We‘re talking about small gang warfare here. Maybe alliances would have to adapt a little to the fact that there is a very local problem. Maybe you would need local pings then. I am sure CFC IT will be able to come up with some solution ;-)


The solution is to not use them because putting your loot in a Space ATM Machine is unnatural and stupid.

(spAceTM Machine?)
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#1165 - 2014-01-16 16:23:33 UTC
after giving it much thought i have to say just switching it to lp is wrong too.

remember the pve player is starting at a huge disadvantage. a pve ship will lose to a pvp ship of the same class every time, this means they have to get into a station that was probably bubbled right away, reship, and get a fleet together.

not to mention the most a null sec system can support at once is 5 active ratters. that means it only takes a 7 man gang to skew the odds out of favor of it ever being defended. this is because of the way sites spawn. in highsec you get a site anytime someone talks to their agent, but in null all players share a set pool of sites and have to wait for them to re-spawn. if more than 5 are in a system they will not spawn fast enough to support the people running them so the extras have to go to other systems.

there is no potential upside for a ratter to use this, they cannot get the odds in their favor. the rewards for use would have to be astronomical for the constant badgering to be worth it. because dont forget this module entices people to come raid your systems. there is no downside to it for them. get in smash and leave, the attackers wont even be looking for pvp. they will just fly interceptor that cant be caught, if someone resists too much just hit a different one a few jumps out. they outrun any kind of defense fleet, so they can zip around grabbing isk while the defenders chase them.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1166 - 2014-01-16 16:25:05 UTC
Tahnil wrote:

I see it different. In the current state of nullsec, a roaming gang of 5-20 people can‘t do **** to provoke a fight. Yes, it‘s possible to gank somebody, and if you‘re really, really lucky you find a gang of locals willing to fight. But this will happen once in like five roamings. At least this is my experience from small scale roamings, twice or three times weekly, in different parts of the nullsec regions.

The sad truth is: if a smallscale roaming gang enters nullsec, all ratters dock up, and all other inhabitants don‘t care at all.

It is simply a necessity that roaming gangs are able to do SOMETHING that hurts the local inhabitants. Right now they are mostly ignored, and for good reasons.

The idea behind ESS – at least as I understand it – is to give nullsec ratters a new deployable that potentially increases their income, but with a price. A part of their income will be at risk. CCPs job is to balance it properly. Risk vs reward.

Whenever there is even a small amount of extra profit, some people are willing to risk more in order to get it. Sometimes they are aware of the risk, sometimes not. That‘s only natural. CCPs job is to balance it such that enough people are willing to take this risk.

Therefore we should only talk about the right balance, and the exact mechanics of the module, not if it should exist at all. There has to be some kind of ESS!

And a TCU doesn‘t cut it, and it‘s quite obvious. No small or mid scale roaming gang could ever do anything to harm a TCU.


Look, no one is going to deploy this even if the potential bonus to bounties was 200%. Think about it this way:

1. What is to stop someone from your alliance with a 1 day old alt from robbing the ESS?

2. What is to stop someone from your alliance from logging on a neutral alt they have logged off in system and robbing the ESS?

These are two obvious ways to exploit this deployable/mechanic to the point that no ratter is going to agree to use these no matter what the potential bonus is. If i log on to rat and see one of these in system the first thing I will do is blow it up. Me blowing up someone's deployable = alliance drama. The 1 day old alts robbing the ESS = alliance drama. Alliance leaders deal with enough drama already and will just ban the use of these.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Maybe if you have never lived in or don't understand nullsec you should stop posting in this thread?
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#1167 - 2014-01-16 16:26:32 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Funless Saisima wrote:
Tahnil wrote:


ESS doesn‘t require you to fight in your PvE fit. Not at all. PvE ratters should be able to dock / POS up and switch to suitable combat ships, maybe even call for reinforcements from nearby systems. (That‘s one of my main concern with the current mechanic of the ESS. A fixed timer doesn‘t cut it. Depending on the situation it is either too short or too long. Right now it‘s too short. ESS can be robbed long before the defenders are able to react. Therefore the „take all“ option should be a payment over time, not a single payment after a timer. For example the attacker could get one tag for every x seconds that he‘s willing to wait at the ESS module.)


If someone actually makes a ping to defend an ESS, they will get laughed at and have their ping privileges removed.


I‘m not talking about forming a fleet of 200 CFC Dominixes. We‘re talking about small gang warfare here. Maybe alliances would have to adapt a little to the fact that there is a very local problem. Maybe you would need local pings then. I am sure CFC IT will be able to come up with some solution ;-)



the problem is these systems cant support a reasonable number of players ratting in them. the lowest truesec supports maybe 5, the rest 1 or 2. null is empty because it will not support larger groups in systems doing things at the same time. and if you think the attacking small gang wont bring 7 because the local populous is probably only 5 you are dumb.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1168 - 2014-01-16 16:34:31 UTC
Billybob Sheepshooter wrote:
Tahnil wrote:

I see it different. In the current state of nullsec, a roaming gang of 5-20 people can‘t do **** to provoke a fight. .


Head over to any of the major staging systems in nullsec, and you will get a fight.



Do you have any sense of scope at all? As someone that regularly takes out 5-10 man frigate & cruiser gangs, if I head to VFK, or Doril, or ... I don't get anything close to a fight. I show up looking for fun, and the response is a 30 man frigate, cruiser, bc fleet with logi, jams, and links.

When I'm wielding a 60 man frigate or destroyer or cruiser fleet, these are exactly the places I go for a good fight (often), but for most players in this game gangs of this size are not a nightly activity. In contrast, when I take out my 5-10 man gang, the locals know I generally don't have a 50 man AHAC fleet ready to cyno in as backup, they know that scouting me and mine the force we bring, such that a 4-5 locals can ship up and actually take us on in a good fight (especially if they have backup in route). As it is though, most locals have no reason to fight. If they stay safe, there is nothing our small gang can do to harm them and theirs.

Frankly, there are two elements to "defending" your space:

One is claiming space as yours (i.e. the Sov game). This is well established, even if the mechanics aren't ideal.

The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!

Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1169 - 2014-01-16 16:38:08 UTC
As a serious question to CCP, why are almost all other changes being posted on F&I and Test Server Feedback but the ESS skipped all of that? or have we just not got there yet because this became the thread that would have been on F&I?

It seems that Fozzy, Rise and Karkur have threads up for player feedback and ideas for iteration before things get too serious but this didn't.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1170 - 2014-01-16 16:38:32 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
not to mention the most a null sec system can support at once is 5 active ratters. that means it only takes a 7 man gang to skew the odds out of favor of it ever being defended. this is because of the way sites spawn.


…and…

greiton starfire wrote:
the problem is these systems cant support a reasonable number of players ratting in them. the lowest truesec supports maybe 5, the rest 1 or 2. null is empty because it will not support larger groups in systems doing things at the same time. and if you think the attacking small gang wont bring 7 because the local populous is probably only 5 you are dumb.


As I see it there are a lot of systems with a lot more than 5 inhabitants in local. Most of the time there is a station, or several POS, or whatever. Just for the sake of argument I accept your notion that any given system with upgrades can only support 5 ratters at the same time. But not all people in local are ratting. Some people are doing other things, while still logged in and potentially available for a PvP operation. And there are more people in adjacent systems.

The problem as I see it is that most ratters in nullsec behave kind of autistic when ratting. Oftentimes when you attack somebody, this guy will call for help in local chat. How poor is that? There are alliance mates or even corp mates in the same system, and the guy has to call for help in local? Come on, nullbears, you surely can do better than this.

As I said, I would greatly support a different mechanic, allowing for a longer reaction time for defenders. For example the payout for „take all“ should be in chunks over time, not all at once after a set timer. Attackers would for example get one tag every ten seconds, or something like this. Therefore the defenders can‘t just say „okay, I won‘t be there in time anyway“. The situation would go on as long as there is money in the ATM, only limited by the attacker‘s greed and the defenders will to fight back.
Funless Saisima
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1171 - 2014-01-16 16:38:42 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!



Station services were added to entice more small gang warfare. (Yes, that is sarcasm). The EES just won't get used by anyone.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1172 - 2014-01-16 16:39:14 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Foo Chan wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:


If a forced fight is what you are looking for a module already exists for this, its called an SBU.


Damn right.


This is the wrong scale....

A small gang can't attack a POS, they can't deploy and/or defend an SBU... This game DESPERATELY needs small gang oriented objectives. Something that the locals find worth defending, and any small (<10 cruisers) can achieve. Otherwise, your small gangs are relegated to "hunting ratters" which safe up and don't fight because they have no reason to fight.

Well what kind of money are we talking here? A structure for 30 mil and how much isk in the rat bounty pot, another 30? Maybe people will get four or five friends together and put cruisers, fitting, and pods on the line for that amount of isk, but I doubt it.


Perhaps your right... but solving this is very simple: Increase the reward given by the ESS. If it had 100m in the rat bounty pool, I bet more people would step up. Additionally, ensure that the locals have enough time to actually respond. I'd like to see about 10 minutes before the isk-tag drops, thereby allowing them time to pull in friends nearby, to ship up, and to come out swinging.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1173 - 2014-01-16 16:39:44 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!


Why?

Why should people spend their time in game waiting around for you to arrive? Or more accurately, waiting around for you to jump a scout in, change your mind and run away?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1174 - 2014-01-16 16:41:05 UTC
Turelus wrote:
As a serious question to CCP, why are almost all other changes being posted on F&I and Test Server Feedback but the ESS skipped all of that? or have we just not got there yet because this became the thread that would have been on F&I?

It seems that Fozzy, Rise and Karkur have threads up for player feedback and ideas for iteration before things get too serious but this didn't.


My suspicion is that they already knew it would have negative feedback and be poorly received. They probably erroneously view it as "tough love" - something that will "improve" the game despite everybody affirming them that it won't.

Thus, if they put a bunch of dev time into it, and have the "pot odds" on the feature be very high, they won't back down on overwhelming negative player feedback because....They already put too much time into it.

I guess this feature is "too big to fail." It happens no matter what because they kept it hidden and put a bunch of time/money into it.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1175 - 2014-01-16 16:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Yeep wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!


Why?

Why should people spend their time in game waiting around for you to arrive? Or more accurately, waiting around for you to jump a scout in, change your mind and run away?


Don't be harsh man, I mean, Sirius Fleet and Agony Empire will need to defend their borders and infrastructure just as vigilantly as.. oh, oh, I see.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1176 - 2014-01-16 16:42:40 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1
...
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
...
I'm not saying that the ESS is intended to reduce inflation. I'm saying we want to be careful about how much higher than the current 100% we can go. So it's not about trying to reduce the ISK entering the game through NPC bounties, it is making sure it doesn't increase too much.


So the purpose of the ESS is to increase income, so we should want to use it. However you are already giving us too much ratting income, so in order to increase it, you need to decrease it first.

Sure that makes sense from a numbers and balancing point of view. From a consumer's point of view, it's like those BS Christmas sales where companies say everything is 50% off - after increasing prices by 75%. It's a load of horse manure.

I see what you're trying to do - put some of that isk at risk and use the new deployable toys. But you're doing a poor job of selling it to us, and the design lacks any sort of desirability from our point of view beyond hoping to dodge a 5% nerf.

Please try again.


CCP SoniClover wrote:

I tend to avoid answering posts using inflammatory phrasing, but I actually think your signature answers your question pretty well.
...
CCP SoniClover wrote:

We hate everyone equally.


Pick a side - humorous inflammatory phrasing is good/bad?


I love you all equally, hope that helps!

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1177 - 2014-01-16 16:43:48 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!


Why?

Why should people spend their time in game waiting around for you to arrive? Or more accurately, waiting around for you to jump a scout in, change your mind and run away?


They shouldn‘t. They should do whatever they are doing. But IF somebody shows up, there should be some chance for small scale PvP. Currently there is nearly none at all. There might be a gank, and very rarely some locals decide to fight. But this is only once every five or more small gang roamings.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#1178 - 2014-01-16 16:45:43 UTC
this ESS thing would make a lot more sense, if 0.0 anomalies would actually support:

1) a small gang of inhabitants in PvP-ready ships
2) still making reasonable profit, while beeing in fleet with more than one other pilot and in another site than sanctums.

current system is more in favor of systems with as few pilots as possible to keep income ticks as high as possible. nobody likes to grind more than neccessary. besides that, 50% of all anomalies in a system (even when fully upgraded) are not worth the time (below forsaken hub).
new bros make more isk with belt chaining till you can fly forsaken hubs.

looks to me like it's better to put the ESS back for a bit and redesign 0.0 PVE content first.
maybe design sites around a number of pilots needed to complete the site. force gang setups also usable in small gang pvp.
then you can implement something like the ESS to introduce new conflict drivers for small scale pvp. at that point give the concept of mynnna another look.
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#1179 - 2014-01-16 16:46:56 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
greiton starfire wrote:
not to mention the most a null sec system can support at once is 5 active ratters. that means it only takes a 7 man gang to skew the odds out of favor of it ever being defended. this is because of the way sites spawn.


…and…

greiton starfire wrote:
the problem is these systems cant support a reasonable number of players ratting in them. the lowest truesec supports maybe 5, the rest 1 or 2. null is empty because it will not support larger groups in systems doing things at the same time. and if you think the attacking small gang wont bring 7 because the local populous is probably only 5 you are dumb.


As I see it there are a lot of systems with a lot more than 5 inhabitants in local. Most of the time there is a station, or several POS, or whatever. Just for the sake of argument I accept your notion that any given system with upgrades can only support 5 ratters at the same time. But not all people in local are ratting. Some people are doing other things, while still logged in and potentially available for a PvP operation. And there are more people in adjacent systems.

The problem as I see it is that most ratters in nullsec behave kind of autistic when ratting. Oftentimes when you attack somebody, this guy will call for help in local chat. How poor is that? There are alliance mates or even corp mates in the same system, and the guy has to call for help in local? Come on, nullbears, you surely can do better than this.

As I said, I would greatly support a different mechanic, allowing for a longer reaction time for defenders. For example the payout for „take all“ should be in chunks over time, not all at once after a set timer. Attackers would for example get one tag every ten seconds, or something like this. Therefore the defenders can‘t just say „okay, I won‘t be there in time anyway“. The situation would go on as long as there is money in the ATM, only limited by the attacker‘s greed and the defenders will to fight back.



the problem is that the only ones that actually give a damn if the isk is stolen are the ones ratting, as it is no one is coming to save you in your ratting ship if you get caught, why would they try to save your isk. there is no reason a ratter would use this, the cost is too high. there is no reward. also, there may be more than 5 people in a system but many people go afk in station for hours at a time.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1180 - 2014-01-16 16:49:36 UTC
Funless Saisima wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!



Station services were added to entice more small gang warfare. (Yes, that is sarcasm). The EES just won't get used by anyone.


Ignoring the ratting nerf:

You you drop your bounty payout from 100% to 90% so at the end of the hour, if you were uninterrupted, you netted 120% in bounties? Your answer is, well what are the risks I can successfully acquire those bounties? And if I said you would have a 10 minute window to defend the ESS from incoming hostiles, you'd look at how likely you are going to be able to defend it.

If you only have a couple people in system, this is probably indefensible (normally). If you have 20 people in system, then this is probably very defensible. This thereby encourages you to bunch up, which gives you more overall protection, and more overall entertainment in game. At this point, CCP needs only buff some of the mid-level anomalies to be group-oriented activities that pay as well or better than solo running.