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Flash-Bang Phoenix
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AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#1 - 2014-01-16 01:57:29 UTC
The Phoenix needs to rise from the ashes, but it's not the ship that needs help...

Missiles in siege warfare is holding this bird down.
Problem: Missile flight time...

Idea: Give the Citadel Missile a micro jump drive to the target.

Launch Missile, Missile Jump, Boom...
Ship stats remain the same, flight time is less than a second (like all other dread weapons).


Just a thought to bring some relevance back to this ship. No balance needed (until cap re-balance), just improved ammunition.


Flash-Bang Phoenix
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-01-16 02:31:05 UTC
From what I understand the problem with the phoenix is not missile flight time, it's that the damage application for capital sized missiles is terrible. So I don't see how messing around with the missile mechanics to apply instant damage on capital sized missiles would be a solution to their actual damage application (as missile flight time is just a reason missiles are less favored in sov warfare, but does not actually exclude their use).
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#3 - 2014-01-16 02:47:10 UTC
The problem is definitely damage application, not flight time.

That said, I do think missiles with onboard MJDs would be very cool Big smile.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#4 - 2014-01-16 02:52:58 UTC
I was hoping that if CCP would improve the charge, they would balance around the charge now and the ship later.

DPS is a concern, as it has been. I was trying a different route to encourage balancing before the real capital balance... soon(TM)

a little here, a little there.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5 - 2014-01-16 07:36:41 UTC
I really dont understand the complaints about the phoenix . . .

The only thing it cannot do is blap subcaps which IMHO turret dreads shouldnt be able to do in the first place.

Since gang bonuses do not stack, the smallest sig radius you can possibly get on a cap is 1522 m^2, thats a with a strong x-instinct booster and a Ragnarok giving perfect gang boost. At that size you always do full damage with just 2 webs on it.

Ive read about "speed tanking supercaps" and how supercarriers can speed tank a phoenix's shots. I can find no configurations of any supercarrier which can mitigate any damage at all from a phoenix.

Is there another concern that Im missing besides firewalling?
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#6 - 2014-01-16 08:18:05 UTC
Maybe if they could add the option of Hybrid turrets, it would perform better DPS wise?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#7 - 2014-01-16 10:12:14 UTC
Sigras wrote:
At that size you always do full damage with just 2 webs on it.


Woops immune to electronic warfare woops...

---

Give the phoenix turret slots, and give him new hybrid bonuses in addition to his missile bonuses, problem solved.
So, yeah, SURE, you could threorically fit three launchers and one turret, or the opposite, on a dread if you do not use the siege module, but the lack of dps and the fact that you'd need different damage mods makes this abuse pointless.

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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-01-16 12:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Altrue wrote:
Sigras wrote:
At that size you always do full damage with just 2 webs on it.


Woops immune to electronic warfare woops...


The only capitals that are immune to electronic warfare are ones that are sieged or triaged. These tend not to move much and hence don't need to be webbed. This means that there is no damage application problem against supercaps and capitals - only against subcaps, but the nature of the missile damage formula means that this will always exist. Meaning that the only role possible for the Phoenix is as an anticapital/structure platform - but here it is inferior because it lacks damage.

Yet again, the problem with the Phoenix isn't damage application, it's damage amount.
Sigras
Conglomo
#9 - 2014-01-20 11:16:48 UTC
I dont really understand the damage amount problem though . . . the phoenix does just slightly more damage than the revelation and at greater ranges too and nobody is complaining that the revelation sucks.

My theory is that people dont like the fact that you cannot blap with them to which I say then they should remove the ability for turret dreads to blap because blap dreads goes against the very stated design goals of CCP.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-01-20 12:41:08 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I dont really understand the damage amount problem though . . . the phoenix does just slightly more damage than the revelation and at greater ranges too and nobody is complaining that the revelation sucks.


The Rev does suck, frankly. It does less damage than the Naglfar, while using lots of cap and being constrained to EM/thermal, while having no meaningful range advantage and worse tracking. The comparison with the Moros is not flattering either.

The Phoenix has a small paper damage advantage, but the interaction of siege mode and missile flight time probably removes it in practice. Also, RAHs and refitting means that it's generally unwise to use all-kinetic missiles; switching one or two launchers to non-kinetic drops the Phoenix's paper damage below the Rev.