These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dillonp
End-of-Line
#1001 - 2014-01-16 05:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dillonp
Fantastic idea.


Please continue with the carebear rage/tears. *eats more popcorn

:D

Edit:
Tippia wrote:
That's interesting, since apparently there is no inflationary pressure at the moment.


There is always inflation. A certain amount of inflation in an economy is healthy. (Careful management of the inflation rate is necessary)
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1002 - 2014-01-16 05:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyn Pharoh
I don't want to confuse my major issues with the ESS with nitpicking, but I am concerned about the 'lore' logic as taken from post #844...
CCP SoniClover wrote:

...mostly for lore reasons - the empires are coughing up money themselves because they´re hoping to draw null sec pilots back into the fold.


It can be hard at the best of times to separate 'lore' from being anything other than the ingame, roleplayed thoughts and motives of the designers of any game. Historically, New Eden 'lore' has had specific and profound impact on the direction of gameplay. Here is what I'm seeing:

'[CCP is] coughing up money themselves because they're hoping to draw null sec pilots back into the [empire] fold'.

Regardless of intent, if the ESS makes life for Provibloc Holders harder, then the above is likely to happen. Regardless of isk faucet imbalance issues, if the ESS makes life harder for Drone Region inhabitants, then again, the above is likely to happen. The already spacerich in 0.0 will be just fine, they don't rat for a living anyways. It will be rank and file members in the toughest parts of 0.0 that will bear the brunt of this new content squarely on the chin. Please come back at this project with a thoughtful review of your playerbase feedback and take all the 'negative creep' out of the package prior to its release. Address not just the mechanical exploits that can turn 'an otherwise interesting idea' into a monster. Take a hard look at the deeper issues driving this thing and get out in front of it in a way completely differently than we have seen so far.
Sakido Cain
Duragon Pioneer Group
#1003 - 2014-01-16 06:06:46 UTC
Has anyone taken the time to understand why Null is a pure ISK venture? We are the ones blowing up the most ships, causing the most removal of assets and in the end destroying everything High took the time to build. In doing so, we also tend to not have many safe routes back into, Low or High which means we care little for any form of ISK making that requires us to move assets out.

Now I am now saying we don't move deadspace and such, but that is actually a small minority of players doing so, with the bulk of combat pilots who live full time in null ratting to fund the destruction. Removing ISK from null in the end actually leads to less funds taht can be transfered to the HighSec industrial centers which supply a fair share on the products that are needed for the destruction. This leads to less players in Null who want to grind longer and enjoy combat less. The true Null ISK machines though are not going to be phased. The botters.

The botters, 20 man ISOboxers and such, these are the ones that score a majority of the ISK from NPC bounties, and funnel those profits into High where they are then used for RMT or such, and even to just fund one mans desire to rule his own personal fleet. Though the point is still that a small number of living players are actually responcible for a large portion of this ISK that is coming into the game.

Creating a deployable is not going to slow this down, but in all likelyhood, increase this, because these guys are 1) gonna use the modual in the system he has been quietly ratting for months, increasing his already large income; 2) is not gonna use the modual, and still reaping in vast amounts of 'unused' ISK, meaning ISK that he has no need for personally, or 3) he uses the modual and he gets robbed, in which case, there is still the same overly large portion of ISK flowing into the game.

Deployables like this are just bad logic, instead, think about ways of causing havic on a botted, or AFK ratter. The rather rare, faction spawn, is a joke and officer spawns are so rare as to no be a concern, which don't show in anoms anyways. This could be off set though by having a random spawn that is slightly lower HP that a faction spawn, but has a much larger DPS scale. This way, a human player sees the UBER spawn, kills it and enjoys a bonus, and the bot dies cause the script didn't adjust for it. Oh and have said UBER spawn be the same name as normal spawns but rather have a diff target Icon, so visual confirmation of life rather than a name a script can adjust to.

That is how you reduce the ISK flow, make it where the stream of 'unused' ISK is much harder to acheive and not interfer with the normal day to day players that live and fight. those are the players that keep the economy running, and should not be punished
Shvak
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1004 - 2014-01-16 06:16:49 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.

Turelus wrote:

* Why isn't it a seeded BPO/BPC instead of buy it now item?


That is mostly for lore reasons - the empires are coughing up money themselves because they´re hoping to draw null sec pilots back into the fold.


Turelus wrote:

* Why should we risk 20% of our members income for such a small gain?


This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.


The ESS are a bad idea period. If the worry is isk coming in then drop the isk in bounties by 5% - Lore is simple - Concord reduce bounties after empire economic downturn etc
We will all take the knock in our stride and you will have reduced inflation without wasting our time on a gimmick... But then again I am guessing you know that Big smile
Classic really. introduce something so unpopular that people will actually beg you to rather reduce their income by 5% in a thread rather than see you introduce a shite module. Well played CCP
Shvak
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1005 - 2014-01-16 06:23:06 UTC
Sakido Cain wrote:

The botters, 20 man ISOboxers and such, these are the ones that score a majority of the ISK from NPC bounties, and funnel those profits into High where they are then used for RMT or such, and even to just fund one mans desire to rule his own personal fleet. Though the point is still that a small number of living players are actually responcible for a large portion of this ISK that is coming into the game.

Creating a deployable is not going to slow this down, but in all likelyhood, increase this, because these guys are 1) gonna use the modual in the system he has been quietly ratting for months, increasing his already large income; 2) is not gonna use the modual, and still reaping in vast amounts of 'unused' ISK, meaning ISK that he has no need for personally, or 3) he uses the modual and he gets robbed, in which case, there is still the same overly large portion of ISK flowing into the game.

Deployables like this are just bad logic, instead, think about ways of causing havic on a botted, or AFK ratter. The rather rare, faction spawn, is a joke and officer spawns are so rare as to no be a concern, which don't show in anoms anyways. This could be off set though by having a random spawn that is slightly lower HP that a faction spawn, but has a much larger DPS scale. This way, a human player sees the UBER spawn, kills it and enjoys a bonus, and the bot dies cause the script didn't adjust for it. Oh and have said UBER spawn be the same name as normal spawns but rather have a diff target Icon, so visual confirmation of life rather than a name a script can adjust to.

That is how you reduce the ISK flow, make it where the stream of 'unused' ISK is much harder to acheive and not interfer with the normal day to day players that live and fight. those are the players that keep the economy running, and should not be punished

Now this idea I like
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#1006 - 2014-01-16 06:36:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Or, given the previous statement that the goal is to minimise inflation, is it the objective design goal here to make the ESS less than desirable, on average. After all, if the intent is to reduce ISK influx, then surely the ESS must either not be deployed (leaving the bounties at 95%) or on average produce a <100% bounty payout, or it will end up doing the exact opposite of what you're aiming for. You can't in one sentence say that, no, its being worth-while is subjective and in another say that the intent is to reduce the bounty payouts on average to control inflation. To achieve the goal, it must objectively be a bad thing, even if some people choose to gamble on it and occasionally — rarely — get that above-100% payout.

I'm really disturbed at how obvious that ought to have been, right from the very beginning of this whole discussion. Really disturbed.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Demica Diaz
SE-1
#1007 - 2014-01-16 06:40:09 UTC
I can think of few fun ways to exploit ESS module but one thing keeps bothering me dearly. Interceptors. Cruise around space, immune to all, looting ESS. Kinda bothers me this low risk high potential combination. I think with new era of ESS, we will see even further increase of interceptors in null. Call me paranoid Shocked. If ship can just pop in, loot and pop out in no time then its seems to be quite easy to loot ESS. Bear
Shvak
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1008 - 2014-01-16 07:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shvak
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:

maybe it is because I am blonde and a woman but where will the fight be?

As I outlined in my post there wont be any new fights. There MIGHT be one short structure bash, and that is it. And for what reward? None that I can see, nor can those with more math then I.

so.. can you please explain where the conflicts will be? Help us please understand your vision because I think a lot of us are missing it.

please?


If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.

I am going to point out a little fault with your maths here I think?
We will use 1000 isk as an example.
All bounties in null sec will be reduced to 95% of pre Rubicon 1.1
= -5%
so your 1000isk (pre-rubicon 1.1) is now 950isk (post-rubicon 1.1)
When an ESS drops into system it drops all bounties in system to 80% of the already reduced 95% of original pre rubicon figures.
So your 950isk
= -20%
A grand total of 760isk.
So once deployed you are left with 760 isk of your original pre rubicon1000isk. so when you get the ESS to the maximum it pays out which is plus 25% of the already reduced by 80% total you are left with a staggering 1000isk which is exactly the same sum you would get in pre-rubicon1.1 days.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1009 - 2014-01-16 07:36:02 UTC
Shvak wrote:

We will use 1000 isk as an example.
All bounties in null sec will be reduced to 95% of pre Rubicon 1.1
= -5%
so your 1000isk (pre-rubicon 1.1) is now 950isk (post-rubicon 1.1)
When an ESS drops into system it drops all bounties in system to 80% of the already reduced 95% of original pre rubicon figures.
So your 950isk
= -20%
A grand total of 760isk.


Not quite. The original message says that the ESS will move the % down to 80%, not 80% of the new 95.

If you collect the payout of an unbonussed you are back to 1000k, if the thing gets into bonus time then 1050 k

Not that I am supporting it, but I like the math to be right in the arguments

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1010 - 2014-01-16 07:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dillonp wrote:
There is always inflation. A certain amount of inflation in an economy is healthy. (Careful management of the inflation rate is necessary)

Not always, no, and either way, the inflation rate is where it's supposed to be so minimising it is a bad idea regardless.

That said, I rather question whether reducing nullsec (and only nullsec) bounties by a flat 5% will have any effect whatsoever on the influx of ISK. It's just as likely that it will be what it always was, but people will have to grind more to stay in position relative to all the other — untouched — personal income sources. So not only is the objective of this deployable disconnected with economic reality; the reason for its being developed is disconnected from behavioural reality and the bad gameplay it both forces and reinforces.

If the goal was ever to reduce the amount of ISK being brought into the game (highly doubtful and based on dubious logic), Mynnas idea of shifting some income over into something LP-like is a far better idea: don't touch the income itself, but alter the sourcing of (part of) that income to become a sink rather than a faucet.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1011 - 2014-01-16 07:52:12 UTC
The logic, or lack of logic on this one astounds me.

CCP wants to have more people in null.....but now creates something that does not make it even remotely fun.

Now we have to online some stupid module that nobody asked for....engage in ratting.....the spend time after ratting to take tags....the undeploy said module.

You have added unneeded worthless gameplay.....it does not add to the enjoyment of the game ... There is no fun in using this...it does not correct a wrong, or fix a bug, or add value to eve in the slightest.

You want to nerf null ratting payouts... Nerf the payout....don't add some piece of garbage that gives a bunch of messages and adds nothing to the game.

Stop spending time on these kinds of new features and start spending some time on fixing some of the long standing issues that your long term playerbase have been asking for....for years....remember POS's?? We have not forgotten.

Nor have we forgotten the Incarna debacle. We were promised that you would be working on FIS.....I don't see that even remotely in this ESS thing. I see another bad attempt at new features run amok.

This does not create fun CCP....it's just a bad idea...plain and simple.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1012 - 2014-01-16 07:54:48 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
At one point, I might've agreed with you. But these days, the sheer amount of people ratting in carriers tells a weeee bit of a different story, I think.

I've been able to fly a carrier for just over 24 hours now. I'm having a very hard time convincing myself it would ever be a good idea, especially considering the warp speed changes, the fact that forsaken hubs now have warp disrupting rats, and the fact that fighters are really not that good for applying damage to subcaps.

If carrier ratting is being abused then it's carriers that need to be changed.


People who rat in carriers do not use fighters.

They sit at range with sentries, so will not be tackled by the rats.
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#1013 - 2014-01-16 07:57:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ynot Eyob
This is problally the worst idear to date, i rather want new Towers and tower structure - WHY, WHY WHY, I can only see who this can serious benifit special by looking at who is commenting.

How is this going to work in the Drone Region? What faction will that be under?

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#1014 - 2014-01-16 08:03:39 UTC
So manny tears over loosing 5% of your income... It's actually a buff to your income if you are willing to protect your space.

The biggest issue is the overpowered interceptors but that's for another thread...

CCP, perhaps you should scrap the idea of reducing the income to 80% when a ESS is anchored and instead fix it at 95 or 90%. This way, there is a real incentive (20% buff) to use the structure and for the people who choose not to use it, a 5 or 10% loss isn't that big a deal.
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1015 - 2014-01-16 08:04:43 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


Your own economist says otherwise.

Quote:
The next graph showed the money supply. Overall, the money supply is evening out--changes to systems have reduced the ISK supply, so average ISK in active wallets is stable as of November 2012 and the maximum amount may even be peaking. While Mike points out that the leveling-out at the top of the graph is very short, Dr. EyjoG responded that it was the first plateau visible at all. Sinks and faucets are fairly balanced right now, with a bit more faucet than sink to allow for economic growth.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM8_August_Summit_Minutes.pdf

This explanation doesn't hold water and you've published something to that effect.


I went into some detail here: Snipe Post 1k and have since then spent awhile considering the November 2012 economic report, graciously brought into discussion by the above. I did a quick recheck and believe my original premise to be even stronger...

IF there is an isk faucet issue, derived from 0.0 bounties, then What Has Changed? Inferno happened. Moreover, the prolonged effects of Inferno have happened. Without finding the charts/graphs referenced in the 2012 economic report, and not seeing graphs and charts through 2013, we are all operating in a vacume. Like space though, this is not a perfect vacume. Taking into consideration that the single greatest addition to New Eden since 2012 in terms of bounty isk faucets happened with Inferno, its very likely that it has taken awhile for the momentum of that firehose to really have an impact. An impact that now has CCP targeting all 0.0 bounty isk faucet issues as a major priority.

Enough of a priority to blanket nerf 0.0 bounties and develop a very complicated mechanic to 'offset' the nerf.
A nerf being built upon the back of a previous nerf.
Because of Alloy.
Leachim Rengaw
The Nobodiez
#1016 - 2014-01-16 08:12:21 UTC
so in other words the fact that you can earn more running incursion in highsec then you can in anoms in a -1.0 system isn't enough of a slap in the face you need to do this. Nice .. well we all mide as well fire up lv4 mission running toons and give null to the CFC so you can then buff it(reminds me of the backing of BOB by some GM's). Would love to see actual work done on the pos's tidi and legacy coding. But instead more fluff to ensure subscriptions keep falling and leaving most of your long term players going .. what is ccp doing to the game and why are they trying to make it less fun instead of fixing issues we've had for years and, making fighting more fun. Lets not even start on how broken interceptors are .. basically rubicon has been a trash expansion at best what happened to the good content and programers?
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#1017 - 2014-01-16 08:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ynot Eyob
Quinn Corvez wrote:
So manny tears over loosing 5% of your income... It's actually a buff to your income if you are willing to protect your space.

The biggest issue is the overpowered interceptors but that's for another thread...

CCP, perhaps you should scrap the idea of reducing the income to 80% when a ESS is anchored and instead fix it at 95 or 90%. This way, there is a real incentive (20% buff) to use the structure and for the people who choose not to use it, a 5 or 10% loss isn't that big a deal.


If you live in Drone space, with ONLY bounty, no real loot drop except occation worthless BPC drops, no faction spawns, 5% is a big deal. For me this is only to make the rich richer.

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1018 - 2014-01-16 08:16:07 UTC
Quinn Corvez wrote:
So manny tears over loosing 5% of your income... It's actually a buff to your income if you are willing to protect your space.
…except it has nothing to do with protecting your space and everything to do with adding mindless tedium to an already tedious task, and that the stated design goal is that i's not meant to actually be a net buff.

But sure, if a 5% reduction of income is nothing to cry about, let's do it across the board. All bounties, incursion payouts, agent rewards, NPC buy orders, reimbursements are reduced by 5%. Hell, for good measure, let's reduce the character starting cash from 5,000 to 4,750.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1019 - 2014-01-16 08:16:15 UTC
Myriad Blaze wrote:
I wonder whether the ESS is intentionally as bad as it is...
I mean from a dev perspective it might make sense:

  1. You have an idea for your game but you know your players won't like it.
  2. So you come up with something even worse and wait for the collective outcry.
  3. Now you pretend to make some tweaks and adjustments and present your original idea.
  4. The players are relieved that the game change went from "horrid" to just "bad" and calm down.
  5. You tell everyone how you listen to the playerbase and that you just give them what they want.
  6. Kudos and promotions for everyone.




Abolutely...... I have been saying this for ages....
Lex Kali
Leftfield Synergy
#1020 - 2014-01-16 08:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lex Kali
mynnna wrote:
So, in light of "reduce nullsec inflation" being a design goal, I submit a humble proposal. Really, I echo the proposal several people have already made, but in a much more thorough manner.


  • Eliminate the 5% penalty. If we're able to make it attractive enough, you won't need this stick to beat players into eating their carrots, so to speak.
  • Rework the payout of this unit such that it reduces bounties to 80% of their value, but replaces them with LP at a reasonable exchange rate. This exchange rate would ideally be calibrated to the value of easy to buy and move items in the LP store, such as +3 or +4 implants. Given the extra supply we'd see here, something like 800 isk per LP would seem sensible. Thus, killing a million isk bounty rat would now reward 800,000 isk as well as 250 LP.
  • As inflation is no longer a concern, the bonus payout can now increase to an acceptable level as to balance the risk inherent to putting 20% of your income on the line, potentially putting your ratting ship on the line (if reshipping to defend the ESS isn't an option, as it will so often be), etc.
  • As is the case now, a thief can come along and access the ESS after some appropriate length of time. Should they do so, they receive LP tokens.


By using LP and calibrating to something like 800 isk per LP, you maintain the income level for players who just want a fast cashout. However, the unit becomes more attractive to people who are willing to put in the extra bit of effort to find higher yield cashouts, which is generally a plus. This also has the added perk of making the factional choice for ones ESS more meaningful, and opens up the future possibility of ESS modules from other factions as well - naturally, the Sisters of Eve might want to get in on the action, or perhaps a special version of the ESS issued by one pirate faction rewards even more handsomely than the Empire versions, but only for kills against their rivals.

In the worst case, no one uses this - as many individuals and even alliances have already sworn to do with the current version - and nothing changes inflation-wise. However, in the best case, they see widespread adoption, dramatically cutting into the faucet that bounties represent. A followup bonus here is that LP often as not is redeemed with an additional isk payment, so we get the added bonus of an additional sink as well.

Now the largest obstacle here would seem to be that LP is corp based rather than faction based - it's not "Caldari State" LP, it's "State Protectorate" or "Caldari Navy" or what have you. Technically speaking that should not be difficult to overcome, as mechanics to convert one form of LP (CONCORD) into another (almost anything else) already exist, though of course I know nothing about EVE's code. Conceptually speaking though, there are many solutions, perhaps the simplest of which is simply speaking to an agent of the appropriate faction, and trading either your faction LP or your tokens for an equal amount of that corp's LP. That also offers yet another chance for savvy players to increase their income further still, as even within a faction, not all corps are created equal. If access to certain LP stores in this manner is undesirable (FW stores and their special ship offers come to mind) they can simply be added to a restricted list.


e1: Going to call back a much earlier post in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4108628#post4108628

Elements of this could be incorporated, most notably the somewhat higher EHP and the short, fixed duration reinforcement timer as a means of governing access, thus committing someone seeking to steal from the structure to both having a decent amount of DPS and giving defenders a reasonable amount of time to reship and respond.


10/10! Mynna for CS... oh wait. Carry on.

I'd just like to add that not only is ESS a poorly thought out, blatent attempt to meet some arbitrary team out-put quota, Team superfriends isn't funny. Not even ironically.

Move these things to highsec, make them expensive, make them OPT IN even if deployed. Let missioners decide if they want considerably more LP for far less bounties using them or more bounties (business as usual) if not. Give them the hacking minigame and a suspect timer for accessing it. Awesome new highsec content.

If you actually want to decrease isk and increase attentiveness in nullsec, reduce bounties but improve salvage or something like that. Nullsec SHOULD be the biggest isk faucet in the game. Isk -> Nullsec -> Ships -> Traders -> Manufactuers -> Producers With subtler isk sinks at every stage is surely the ideal isk flow?