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Crime & Punishment

 
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Call for Justice!!!
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Grandpa Nickles
Zero-G Engineering.
#1 - 2014-01-15 17:16:14 UTC
I feel there is a neglected community in eve, we are the industrialists, the market traders, the manufacturers, the researchers, the miners, the hisec transporters, we are the very backbone of this game's economy.

The purpose of this post is to discuss the justice system and whether it is in fact fair and just. I am interrested in debate over the balance of crime versus punishment, this post is not to discuss opinions on whether its right or wrong, but whether its balanced.

Although there are those industrialists who choose to operate in lowsec, WH's and null. There are many more who enjoy the productive life of hisec.
The reason we play in hisec is to ensure we can conduct our buinesses with relative safety. There are plenty of systems, in fact the majority of the systems in the game allow for free fire, hisec is in fact in the minority of systems, should we not have some place in eve that is safe for industrialists? One might think that in real life, crime is everywhere, but in our civilised societies we have justice systems and the punishment suffered by the guilty is proportionate to their crime, their spoils are taken and their debt to society must be paid.

What justice is there for industrialists? We're granted kill rights but have neither the means nor the desire to kill, We are industrialists after all.
There is no resolve for the industrialist who is dictated to by pirates and thugs who live in no fear, because a failed policing system allows natorious criminals with the lowest of standings to run free, even giving them time to escape. For their crimes, costing little, having no fear of retribution stealing hours and days of our hard work. And we are given kill rights as justice, something we don't care for.
Hisec is meant to be a sector of space where industrialists can carry out their businesses in safety, and enjoy the economy/industrial aspect of the game which is why we pay to play. We trade for this safety, we deny ourselves the valuable resources of other space, we are denied the use of the stations there and we leave the profitable business there to those who willingly choose to take the risks for higher rewards. We are denied so much, but what security do we gain? A reponse far to late to be of use, the loss of our goods and a killright which we neither care for or use.

Where is the justice in this for the honest, hard working capsuleer.

I do not care for the death of the purpetrator, it would cost, and this would be bad for business, not when the loss of my assets can't be recovered and must be replaced. There are those who would kill, they enjoy pvp but that is there game, not mine, my game is industry. So I ask, where is the justice?

The risks for crime are small, the rewards are big, the punishment negligible. The prirates and gankers have the rest of the eve galaxy to do as they please, is it so much to ask for a small space to enjoy the games industry/economy. I lose hours and days of work, what do the criminals lose? These criminals obviously don't want to be part of hisec. I for one would like to see fines issued, and criminals movement in hisec restricted until they pay back their debt to society. Once they do they can be allowed to reenter hisec. Tolls can be levies at warp gates to charge criminals for their passage.
Or if it is felt that players should drive punishment what about being able to declare trade rights instead of kill rights, where industrial players can restrict who can buy or sell to them based on their security status. This means someone cant sell me their items if they have low standing and I'm warned if buying from a criminal. These sanctions would go a long way to give industrialists a way to fight back against the crime, industry is our game, at the very least give us some manner to use it as a weapon.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-01-15 17:47:29 UTC
You should never use Just ice.
You need whisky with it.

On a serious note.
Some places in eve are safer than others. 100% safe is not desirable.
if you want to be an industrialist in almost 100% safety then just use public courier contracts with appropriate collateral and are thus only exposed to market PVP.
If you are an industrialist then the last thing you would want is perfect safety for freighters or mining barges as the need to keep building things that never get destroyed would by now be long over.
By being aware of the world around you and using easily available intel tools it is possible to lower your risk in most activities in eve. The fact that most people don't bother is not the games fault.
As it is high sec is most likely too safe for the good of the game and makes the move to low/wh/null to scary for many as the contrast is too great. Also new players are more likely to stay on when they are forcefully shown the sandbox and can move away from mining/misisoning. This has been studied and has been shown.
sorry someone killed your ship dude.
lol.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-01-15 18:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Grandpa Nickles wrote:

Hisec is meant to be a sector of space where industrialists can carry out their businesses in safety.


Really?

I just made it unsafe for you.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#4 - 2014-01-15 18:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Wall o' Text strikes for +10 damage...
Mine augen!

Eh, I'm bored, so I'll play along...
Grandpa Nickles wrote:

The reason we play in hisec is to ensure we can conduct our buinesses with relative safety.
This is true. Please note your correct use of the qualifier "relatively."

Quote:
... should we not have some place in eve that is safe for industrialists?

Why? You've already got relative safety... And industrialists successfully manufacture, move, and market trillions of ISK worth of goods every week. Where's the need?

Quote:
Hisec is meant to be a sector of space where industrialists can carry out their businesses in safety...
See, and you were doing fairly well, up to this point. Then you forgot that qualifier... "relatively." Bad move, mate. And that's why your industrial output turned into ashes and someone else's profits - and the other industrialists are undercutting you on prices. 'Cause *they* know that to be safe, you first must know that you are NOT safe.

Aaaand... No longer intertested in playing along.
Have fun with your sense of entitlement!
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-01-15 18:24:47 UTC
And he left corp....

Sigh need to get my suicide alt back online.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-01-15 18:41:29 UTC
I think at this moment most mails I get say I am a ****** who ***** his ********.

So I can't be to sure.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Paranoid Loyd
#7 - 2014-01-15 18:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
The thing the "industrialist" that whines for safer operations doesn't seem to understand is, as long as you are not the victim, any ganking that takes place against your industry is to your direct advantage. Removal of competition is what a wise industrialist would support, especially in a commodity only based economy where there is no way to differentiate your product from others.

Spending your time understanding how to properly protect yourself would be more productive than trying to change mechanics of the game upon which the economy relies.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Kristopher Rocancourt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-01-15 19:19:02 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
And he left corp....

Sigh need to get my suicide alt back online.


Will donate my sec status and a Tornado to the cause.

http://killalliance.co.uk/tears/tears-holeysheet/

Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#9 - 2014-01-15 19:28:44 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
I think at this moment most mails I get say I am a ****** who ***** his ********.

So I can't be to sure.

A terrible thing, uncertainty. Twisted
Sniper Wolf18
Aggressive Diplomacy
#10 - 2014-01-15 20:20:17 UTC
You don't seem to have thought things out much. Refuse to sell to someone with neg sec? They will just buy using an alt.
This system would also lose you so many sales that you would soon turn it off.
You are safe in hisec so long as you aren't stupid. Carrying loads of expensive items? Fly a blockade runner, they are immune to cargo scanning. Mining in a belt? Fly a tanky barge, have an alt in a Griffin in belt with you.

Right now you just seem to be on a cake & eat it too whine. Highsec is more safe now than ever, instead of whining for even more concessions you should be learning how to best defend yourself.

If you want space where nobody can gank you ever, make a new char and never leave rookie Corp and rookie systems.
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-01-15 20:24:32 UTC
OP Sure displayed a wall of buthurt and text for a shuttle loss and a meh pod.

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#12 - 2014-01-15 20:40:19 UTC
Your post makes me cry on the inside!

I am an industrialist, with a full research POS, multiple MFG characters, PI characters, etc. I mine (occassionally), I mission, I R&D (even though it isn't so worthwhile now), and I constantly partake in t2 production. I am also a PvPer. I've had the unscrupulous attempt to suicide gank my ships and dealt with wardecs to claim my research POS. Coping with these is part of the game, and learning how to defend your stuff, how to mitigate the risks to your ships, and how to operate in a less-than-safe environment is something every capsuleer needs to accept.


Grandpa Nickles wrote:
I feel there is a neglected community in eve, we are the industrialists, the market traders, the manufacturers, the researchers, the miners, the hisec transporters, we are the very backbone of this game's economy.


Believe it or not, I believe that the quoted communities are fairly neglected. Industry is a terribly annoying clickfest, the POS code is a mess, neutral RR to corp members is broken, and I support giving freighters a choice between movement rate, tank, and capacity (you only get 1). I believe that taking risks should be rewarded, and that highsec industry needs a kick in the pants to balance its mostly-safe environment.

Grandpa Nickles wrote:
Hisec is meant to be a sector of space where industrialists can carry out their businesses in safety, and enjoy the economy/industrial aspect of the game which is why we pay to play. We trade for this safety, we deny ourselves the valuable resources of other space, we are denied the use of the stations there and we leave the profitable business there to those who willingly choose to take the risks for higher rewards. We are denied so much, but what security do we gain? A reponse far to late to be of use, the loss of our goods and a killright which we neither care for or use.


Of what "benefits" do you imagine nullsec industry has over highsec industry? There is no where near the production capacity unless you utilize POS MFG, which is very vulnerable for a small increase in production time. Additionally, the added transportation costs of moving items to & from market hubs is quite often greater than the "added" profits you gain from a faster production rate! Frankly, highsec S&I lines need about a 1000 fold increase in operating costs (which you can pass on to the consumer or bypass with POS construction).

I don't believe any area of space should be "safe". I firmly believe everyone should be subject to potential suicide ganking, to wardecs, and to the dangers of other players.

Grandpa Nickles wrote:
The risks for crime are small, the rewards are big, the punishment negligible.


You know, YOU control the potential rewards for the crime. If you fill a freighter with 3b isk in loot, the potential rewards of suicide ganking it are large. If you fill it with 500m or less in loot, the rewards are not worth the effort (usually). If you tank your mackinaw (properly) or even use a skiff, the effort required to gank you is usually not worth it. If you put up POS defenses & hardeners on your indy POS, again the efforts to destroy your POS are often not worth it. If you call in capable allies, or cockblock, or corp hop, the rewards for wardeccing your corp aren't worth it. You see, the risks to the attackers are fairly static, so by controlling the potential rewards, you control the risk:reward ratio.


Grandpa Nickles wrote:

What justice is there for industrialists? We're granted kill rights but have neither the means nor the desire to kill, We are industrialists after all.
....
I for one would like to see fines issued, and criminals movement in hisec restricted until they pay back their debt to society. Once they do they can be allowed to reenter hisec. Tolls can be levies at warp gates to charge criminals for their passage.
Or if it is felt that players should drive punishment what about being able to declare trade rights instead of kill rights, where industrial players can restrict who can buy or sell to them based on their security status. This means someone cant sell me their items if they have low standing and I'm warned if buying from a criminal. These sanctions would go a long way to give industrialists a way to fight back against the crime, industry is our game, at the very least give us some manner to use it as a weapon.


You can recover some of your losses by selling the killrights. There is also social justice, where you can deny players from joining corps when they partake in suicide ganking or awoxing (some corps do that). Your refusal to sell goods to "low security players" can easily be bypassed by alts, but I like the ability to choose who you buy/sell from (unfortunately our market doesn't operate that way). The truth is, there is no justice in this dystopia. You need to proactively protect yourself, as "after-the-fact" is too late.

P.S. Sec status is not a good indicator of a players highsec activities!
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#13 - 2014-01-15 20:43:17 UTC
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:
OP Sure displayed a wall of buthurt and text for a shuttle loss and a meh pod.


Betcha he was auto-piloting, too.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#14 - 2014-01-15 23:59:32 UTC
lol I read your name as Grandpa Nipples

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
Yi-Ming Gren
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-01-16 08:34:21 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:
OP Sure displayed a wall of buthurt and text for a shuttle loss and a meh pod.


Betcha he was auto-piloting, too.



What did he expect? he did not have a permit, no auto piloting New Order space without a permit.

Something to help you out http://www.minerbumping.com/ feel free to contact any member of CODE and they will be happy to get your permit set up.

cpt Varox
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-01-16 09:26:21 UTC
OP, you are the bottom of the food chain, since when do my meals talk?
Jake Patton
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-01-16 10:59:48 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
You should never use Just ice.
You need whisky with it.

You're doing it wrong.
Christian Lionbate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-01-16 14:40:25 UTC
Grandpa Nickles wrote:
I feel there is a neglected community in eve, we are the Victims, HEEEELP!


TLDR ? Fixed it for you Cool
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#19 - 2014-01-16 15:30:25 UTC
Christian Lionbate wrote:
Grandpa Nickles wrote:
I feel there is a neglected community in eve, we are the Victims, HEEEELP!


TLDR ? Fixed it for you Cool

IME, Victims get lots and lots of attention... Clearly, he's not doing 'Victim' right.
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#20 - 2014-01-16 17:45:45 UTC
Not sure if serious, but anyway...

Grandpa Nickles wrote:
is it so much to ask for a small space to enjoy the games industry/economy.


Yes

Grandpa Nickles wrote:

I lose hours and days of work, what do the criminals lose?


Security status, the ability to do anything in hi sec except fly point to point. They also are free kills to anyone that wants to shoot at them.

Grandpa Nickles wrote:

I for one would like to see fines issued, and criminals movement in hisec restricted until they pay back their debt to society. Tolls can be levies at warp gates to charge criminals for their passage.


Movement is restricted, because faction police will blap them if they stay in any one spot for more than a few seconds. Fines are issued in the form of Concord confiscating their ships. Also, they want to regain their sec status, they either grind NPCs or buy tags, which is in effect paying their debt to society.


Grandpa Nickles wrote:

Or if it is felt that players should drive punishment


DING DING DING

Grandpa Nickles wrote:
what about being able to declare trade rights instead of kill rights, where industrial players can restrict who can buy or sell to them based on their security status. This means someone cant sell me their items if they have low standing and I'm warned if buying from a criminal.


I'll tell you a little secret...my ganker alt NEVER bought anything. She can't fly to trade hubs because everyone camping the hubs for war targets/tasty ganks would target and shoot at her. Being able to restrict the sale of your goods to people you didn't want to sell to would be easily circumvented.
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