Ships & Modules

TD's = 100% protection if they enable you to get under the opponents guns. A few frigates can take down turret ship of any size with these. Just lock, TD, kill drones, blow up ship.

SD = almost better than ECM when used properly because while ECM is chance based and can fail, SD always breaks a lock as long as you've done your range math right and have sufficient speed. They jam a lock 100% of the time, and can do so while fitted on ships that aren't even bonused for them, unlike ECM which is restricted to only a few ships to be effective.

TP = great with stealth bombers, drakes, sniper BS, pretty much any situation where you need more DPS on targets smaller than your caliber of weapon. About to become VERY useful with the new Tier 3 BC's - where hitting stuff smaller than your gun caliber will be a critical challenge, easily assisted by fitting a TP, or better yet, bringing along a rapier that could do the job even better. Everyone forgets that gun turrets have their own intrinsic scan resolution that must be smaller than sig radius to do full damage, so tracking is not the only factor in whether you do full DPS. TP are more useful than they are given credit for, they just work differently than the other ewars designed to prevent a ship from shooting back, so they're impossible to compare to something like ECM. Lack of popularity =/= lack of usefulness.

The racial ewar's are only LOL if you haven't seen them used them to frak over an opponent before, using the right ship in the right situation. Falcons and blackbirds are also situational. They are always primary, and can be taken out faster than any other ship that gets used in combat on grid. Falcon / BB pilots must have BALLS. One mistake, and you're toast. I'm fine with those weaknesses being offset by a powerful ewar effect.

And no, I'm not a caldari fanboy. I've never even injected Caldari Cruiser skill (out of hatred for drakes). I've only been on the receiving end of jams, but I've never seen them used often enough to be raising a ruckus about it. If they were used in every fight, it would be one thing. But they're not.

TD;LR

- Ministry of War seems to have real issues with ECM warfare.
- Terminal Troll's carrier got jammed by EC-300's !11!! . Hint: A monocle doesn't help against ECM
- Some Genos trying to hijack an ECM thread again
- Tears from random toons

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and this:

Your well balanced and entirely non-peurile response is duly noted in the 'worthless post' pile.

As I said, the Falcon itself is not OP. The whole system needs to be looked at.

In small gang warfare. Let's say, two BCs coming your way, another guy reported aswell, don't know his shiptype.
I'm like, okay, two BCs, I can take on them with a triple-plated Abbadon I guess. See what I'm doing there ? I know I have a chance of doing something, I know, well, I think I can take them down solo, or I'll kill one of them and the other one will get out of my webrange.

Then what happens, the third guy is a falcon.

What can I do ? I'll get permajammed. If I bring a mate and his BS, we will still get jammed between the falcon, and the two sets of ECM drones. If I bring 3 BS, 2 BCs, this is now a blob, they'll try to run as fast as they can, and we won't catch sh*t. And can't bait, they'll jam the bait anyway.

See where is the problem ?

You'll tell me, take a SD boat or even a regular SD module. I'll have to lock faster than a Falcon, who have a higher scan res than any armor BS. What now ?

A Falcon can pretty much permajamm 3 targets at once. And there is NOTHING the targets can do about it. They can move around the grid, they can't point anything, they can't remote, they can't shoot, they can't throw their drones. For 20s cycles.

That's where ECM is OP compared to other EWs.

Other EWs are counter-able or at least fight-able by regular ships. I can fight a Curse (neutralizing curse, not a full EW curse) with a Tempest (I did, actually, there was a Drake and a Cane with him I think, took down the Drake, the others were out of range and left), I can fight a damping Arazu by rushing towards him or toward my targets. I'll then be in my max targetting range, and I'll be able to do something. I can fight a Rapier by...well, It slow me down, but I can still shoot at him if he is in range (And with large ACs, he is usually in Barrage range).

A Falcon is just something you can't fight, because it doesn't care where you are and what you're doing, it will just prevent you from doing ANYTHING.

However, I'm not nerfing the cr*p out of the Falcon with the changes I proposed.

I'm nerfing ECM drones, because they need nerfing.

I'm buffing ECCMs. This is NOT the same as nerfing Falcons and jammers. You still need to fit an ECCM in order to effectively counter a Falcon. I'm just cutting by half the amount of ECCMs needed to counter those ships, and I'm trying to find a parameter that an ECCM could affect on your ship, so it actually enhance the ship passively (Even when you're not fighting a Falcon).

And yes, I'm nerfing by 25% Optimal/Falloff of Falcons. Why ? Because it's currently very powerfull, and I don't think you should be able to COMPLETELY and PERMANANTLY incapacitate 3 targets at 120km when a Rapier can't web **** at 65km (Well, it can web at that range, with some bonuses, overloading or faction modules, but still). Oh and it can cloack.

Last thing, why do I want non-racial strengh on racial jammers to be removed ?

Because it forces Falcon pilots not to throw a MWD and a full rack of random ECMs, and count on the sheer hull bonuses to make them work.

If you want to jam a Caldari ship and you don't have caldari jammers, use your multispectral jammer.

And I'm not touching jammers duration, because of that thing I added about how ECCMs have a chance of breaking an ECM cycle. Why ? In a small group of players, let's say Rooks and Kings, because those guys are awesome and really know how the game works. Let's say one of their 3 logistics is jammed. He'll tell the other logistics/ships who have an ECCM module to lock him and activate their modules, it might stop the ongoing ECM cycle. That means, the clever use of those modules in a "team-play" way will ensure a more efficient defense against ECMs. And this is what EVE is all about right ? Playing with other peoples.

If your drones aren't heading that way the second he uncloaks you already have issues.

What?

Seriously if Falcons were that crazy, there would be pirates ganking with them....not Vaga's and Cynabals.


:edit
Nice rant....there isn't a lot of reality behind it but nice.

ECM - Electronic Counter Measures

I've read a fair amount of posts in this thread. Is ECM too strong? Can one counter ECM?

The falcon is like flying a wet paper bag. It can only target what it knows is on the field. It can be jammed by other ECM, countered by ECCM. Your drones can rip it to shreds and there's nothing a ECM boat can do to jam your drones.

The other forms of electronic warfare, tracking disruption and sensor dampening, pale in comparison because ECM is everything rolled up into one and much more effective. ECM is tracking disruption and sensor dampening to ultimate effect. ECM completely trumps tracking disruption and sensor dampening in all situations. This should not be.

I don't think the question is: Is ECM too strong? The question is should ECM be sub-divided into more categories with varying effects but more limited in SCOPE.

We already have that with tracking disruption and sensor dampening but ECM trumps it. I think ECM, because it is ultimately sensor dampening and tracking disruption in one very powerful module should have less chance of success. Sensor dampening and tracking disruption should be buffed to have a greater chance of being successful and with stronger effects. I think the ECM pilot should choose: Does he want to turn off a very few, possibly one, ships' abilities to target or effect a greater number of pilots' ability to track and reduce their target range. Such electronics weapons platforms should still remain long range, almost out of reach platforms, IMO.

You can kinda. Set your drones to guard someone that's jammed and they do the same, all drones head straight for the jamming ship.

Only really works if you aren't being aggressed by anything else though. Sometimes works very well to the lulz of the fleet when the ECM pilot is thinking 'WTF!?!? I had them all jammed'.

I suppose I'm in favour of ecm modules breaking locks, having shorter duration and being chance based. Giving a ship a chance to reacquire a target until a ecm module starts a new cycle.

Instead of not being able to lock a target for 20 seconds and the time it takes for a ship to lock a target again. I don't know! BOOST CALDARI! Then myself and others will be alot more interested in changes to ecm. Also, in larger engagements they use to have less of an effect until the recent use of mass logistic ships. Should reduce logistic ships effectiveness and sensor strength.

I dunno, I've just lost alot of ships recently mostly because of ecm and to be honest. It may have alot more to do with the ships I'm flying now (Gallente) and committing more to engagements (in non-frigate hulls).

Still, not that big of a deal, but if I had to deal with that for along time I'm sure I'd be disgruntled too...


-proxyyyy

You don't get it, do you ?

Let's set it this way. I'm in an armor hurricane.

Highslots are the usual highslots.

Medslots are MWD, Capbooster, Scrambler, Tracking computer.

Lowslots are 1600mm, EANM x2, DC II, 2 gyros.

What can I remove from the ship in order to fit any kind of anti-ECM module ?

Should I remove my tracking computer ? The only tracking module I have on my ship ?

Should I remove my warp scrambler ? The only thing that prevent my target from warping away ?

Should I remove my prop mod ? Won't even explain why this is ********.

Should I remove my capbooster ? So I can't run my MWD for more than 5/6 cycles with neuts cycling ? What if I encounter a ship that have neutralizers ? Like a Tempest or something like that ?

Should I remove my armor plate ? No, that would be ********.

Should I remove one of my EANMs, well I think 2 EANMs are required in order to have decent resistances.

Should I remove the damage control ? Heck, of course not.

Should I remove one of my damage mods ? Nope, I already have 220mms because 425mms don't fit with a 1600mm plate. If I remove one of the two damage mods I have, what's left ?

And EVEN If I wanted to remove one of those (very important) modules, would it really enhance my ship ?

If I don't encounter an ECM ship : Not at all, it would be one totally wasted medslot/lowslot.

If I encounter an ECM ship : A bit, but since I'm a BC it wouldn't do much against a Falcon anyway.


You can fit ONE ECCM on a Megathron/Abbadon/Tempest because you have barely enough slots (The Megathron/Abbadon have enough lowslots and tanking abilitie to fit a tracking enhancer, and use the now-free tracking computer slot to fit an ECCM, the Tempest have 5 medslots so he can still fit MWD + scrambler + capbooster + tracking comp + ECCM) to do so. But lower tier ships simply can't fit ECCMs (Sensor backup arrays are useless because ECCMs really aren't THAT effective on regular hulls, so 1/2 ECCM won't help at all) because they don't have enough slots. And they won't sacrifice a USEFULL SLOT in order to fit something that MIGHT be SOMEWHAT usefull if they encounter an ECM ship.


And I'm not even talking about active tanking ships, those simply don't have enough slots/CPU to active tank properly, don't even talk about fitting ECCMs on those.