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ENCOUNTER SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM - How it should work IMO

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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#21 - 2014-01-15 04:39:21 UTC
Part of me wants to hate on this.... the other part of me wants to know when we get High Sec Encounter Surveillance System to syphon off 5% of all mission payouts, LP and rat bounties?








Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#22 - 2014-01-15 04:49:20 UTC
Moving this from General Discussion to Features and Ideas.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
TheMercenaryKing
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-01-15 05:40:05 UTC
so the premise of this mod is:

we nerf ratting income in 0.0 by 5%
We give people the ability to make back what they would normally get and increase payout by 5%
we put 20-25% at risk for the bonus and what people normally get

Oh and those ******* ******** (and various other words i want to say but nothing comes to mind that wont get me banned)
Tags.

Not even the benefit of instant isk, ******* TAGS YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF 0.0 TO SELL TO EMPIRE FACTIONS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svF5Y_Riejc
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#24 - 2014-01-15 06:09:53 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So what? Just because stuff explodes doesn't mean it's good for the game. AOE doomsdays made stuff explode.


AOE doomsdays were considered overpowered afaik.

With the ESS change you get the following scenarios:

- Do nothing: get 5% less ISK/hour (I remember the Tengu's DPS getting nerfed 10% not too long ago), hardly overpowered or game-breaking imo.

- Risk vs Reward stuff otherwise.

Let me address the REAL elephant in the room: stealth buff to AFK cloaking, that's what I think.
Anita Too
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-01-15 06:17:08 UTC
Agreed with the above, risk vs reward is too skewed to one side. Consider the below scenarios assuming a small group rats together and kills 500 battleship rats worth 1 mil bounty a rat pre-nerf:

i) Pre ESS = earns 500 mils per day
ii) Post ESS (Don't deploy ESS), lose 50K a BS => earns 475 mils
iii) Deploy ESS - risk 20% (200K a BS) with a potential return of additional 5% (25 mils) => earns 400 mils per day, with 125 mils at risk + 30 mils of ESS cost (32.2% reward vs risk)

Why would we risk 75 mils of income and 30 mils of equipment (105 mils total) for a potential of 50 mils reward (that is assuming you hit 25% reward straight off).

Now take the view of the thief:

i) Fully fitted interceptor (35 mils) being risked
ii) Potential return = 125 mils + Killmails (357% reward vs risk)

The risk vs reward obviously skewed towards the thieves.

Thus I have decided to be the thief and see if any idiots decide to use the ESS. If no one uses that, it would mean the ESS have just failed to do its job.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#26 - 2014-01-15 12:16:15 UTC
The ESS could be placed 101 KM near a POS.... a heavily armed POS. Since it takes time to access the ESS, anyone not blue gets nailed.

A mini game to access - if you did not contribute to the pool.
Anyone stupid enough to be the last ratter to log off without accessing the ESS deserves to have the ISK printing machine print for someone else.
How about a Hacking game to hack the ESS to print ISK - up to the 50% cost of the ESS even iff the ESS has nothing pooled?
So many ideas.

But the ESS in and of itself? I wonder whose idea this was. Maybe the same guy that thinks a Falcon is overpowered?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Kendarr
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#27 - 2014-01-15 13:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kendarr
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I think the ESS should work by not existing.


I don't agree with this. its a good conflict driver but they should not lower the bounty on rats...

5% of 20 Million (every 20Mins) is 1Mill x 5 is 5 Million.

I want my 5 million isk you cheeky developers!!!!!

I just cant see the good in the ESS other then conflict.

So by not deploying a ESS i lose 25% of the bounty now (20% Tax. 5% to the eve gods.)

How does this really help the people at the bottom???

Thank you

Zebra-Corp
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#28 - 2014-01-15 13:46:37 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I think the ESS should work by not existing.


And some not empty quoting.
Kendarr
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#29 - 2014-01-15 13:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kendarr
[quote=The ESS could be placed 101 KM near a POS.... a heavily armed POS. Since it takes time to access the ESS, anyone not blue gets nailed.

A mini game to access - if you did not contribute to the pool.
Anyone stupid enough to be the last ratter to log off without accessing the ESS deserves to have the ISK printing machine print for someone else.
How about a Hacking game to hack the ESS to print ISK - up to the 50% cost of the ESS even iff the ESS has nothing pooled?
So many ideas.

But the ESS in and of itself? I wonder whose idea this was. Maybe the same guy that thinks a Falcon is overpowered?[/quote]


Quote from the dev post - "The minimum range from these structures is several 100 kilometers."

Several 100 Kilometers not exactly 100 Kilometers!

Zebra-Corp
Ittvan Gizus
Unreasonable Presence
#30 - 2014-01-15 14:16:51 UTC
THIS:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I think the ESS should work by not existing.


Honestly, if CCP wants to nerf ratting income in 0.0, then they should do it in a straight way (and face the consequences.)
And they really should find some real use of a sureillance system. (Like a deployable, expiring object around wh-s and gates to alert the local, or a sov dependant anchorable detecting cloaked ships, covert cynos, etc. or, a high sec deployable assessing the value of cargo ^^, or a war-target detecting deployable, etc.)
Scarlett Wesson
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-01-15 14:33:00 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Oh and those ******* ******** (and various other words i want to say but nothing comes to mind that wont get me banned)
Tags.

Not even the benefit of instant isk, ******* TAGS YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF 0.0 TO SELL TO EMPIRE FACTIONS.


Some people really should learn to read before whining. You get tags only if you TAKE ALL. If you choose "share", you get ISK (provided you took part in the pool, of course). The tags and their selling are the price to pay if you steal everything. Seems pretty fair to me.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#32 - 2014-01-15 14:49:38 UTC
Bald Beauty wrote:
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:
Honestly, your idea is pretty bad. Nothing to stop someone from logging on when nobody else is online and taking it.


Fair comment. So that would be a major flaw. How about when you crack the code it starts a de-activation that takes an hour to unwind and also if anybody in Corp or Alliance can get to it can 'freeze' the account as it were for 24 hours till a director or CEO can reset? Of course resetting would take say 2 minutes, hopefully ending in some PvP as the people trying to rob it have to try and stop you?

You could just place them in major systems so they are easy to defend. Anyway I can see the motive behind the ESS and I just have the vision of a space bank robber trying to break into a corporate vault, hopefully ending in a shoot out! :)


I think a feature that takes as much explaining as the ESS does should not be implemented at all. Adding a bunch of timers and stuff to it, doesn't help.
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#33 - 2014-01-15 16:28:12 UTC
Although I do think the ESS benefits the huge, stable alliances and coalitions more than the smaller 0.0 alliances and corps, I do think the ESS has sufficient risk/reward trade offs for most people to use.

Since it's a system wide booster, it'll probably be purchased on the corp/alliance level with little to no cost to individual members and, despite all the fear and nay-saying, it will probably be very difficult for someone to steal the profits.

Between the 15km no fly zone around the ESS, which alerts everyone in the system when someone arrives, and the 40second delay in payout most people should have the time to react to an ESS incursion before tags are printed. Even if the thief DOES print tags, you still have a chance to retrieve your profits by popping the thief before they escape, which I assume is the reason for tags instead of ISK for a payout.

It's not like your profits are going to sit there for long anyways, most people will log-in, rat, then immediately request a payout. Depending on the system, you might even get one or two payouts while other players finish their runs. The ISK won't sit there for long, just long enough.

I expect that the ESS is going to require some changes in the long run, but it's definitely not going to be the cataclysmic change that some people are expecting.
TheMercenaryKing
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-01-15 16:42:14 UTC
Scarlett Wesson wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Oh and those ******* ******** (and various other words i want to say but nothing comes to mind that wont get me banned)
Tags.

Not even the benefit of instant isk, ******* TAGS YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF 0.0 TO SELL TO EMPIRE FACTIONS.


Some people really should learn to read before whining. You get tags only if you TAKE ALL. If you choose "share", you get ISK (provided you took part in the pool, of course). The tags and their selling are the price to pay if you steal everything. Seems pretty fair to me.


but if i am a pirate stealing from the lawful nullsec empires, why should i have to fly all the way to a high-sec point to sell these or take a loss to selling to players in npc 0.0? if i get ganked with it, i could have a 1 billion isk intercepter. I know there are other ways about this (black ops) but are you kidding me? its a terrible idea. the whole ESS is bad.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#35 - 2014-01-15 17:12:51 UTC
I don't see who will have an incentive to put this thing up. It seems like an invitation for visitors. I'd rather rat for 95% than have the thing in the system.
Roger Arkani
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-01-15 17:58:43 UTC
Oh yeah. So you're nerfing nullsec ratting income by 5% and making me structure grind when hostiles put this thing up in my system? Because I'm sure I'm not going to put this ****** structure in friendly space unless I want to screw over people who live there.
Scarlett Wesson
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-01-15 18:26:20 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Scarlett Wesson wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Oh and those ******* ******** (and various other words i want to say but nothing comes to mind that wont get me banned)
Tags.

Not even the benefit of instant isk, ******* TAGS YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF 0.0 TO SELL TO EMPIRE FACTIONS.


Some people really should learn to read before whining. You get tags only if you TAKE ALL. If you choose "share", you get ISK (provided you took part in the pool, of course). The tags and their selling are the price to pay if you steal everything. Seems pretty fair to me.


but if i am a pirate stealing from the lawful nullsec empires, why should i have to fly all the way to a high-sec point to sell these or take a loss to selling to players in npc 0.0? if i get ganked with it, i could have a 1 billion isk intercepter. I know there are other ways about this (black ops) but are you kidding me? its a terrible idea. the whole ESS is bad.


"Boo hoo hoo! I steal other people's money and I have to work to get the ISK! No way CCP!"

Quote:
or take a loss to selling to players in npc 0.0


Karma's a *****.

As you people like to say, HTFU!
Aivlis Eldelbar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-01-15 22:57:55 UTC
My thoughts on the ESS:

-Risking 20% for a possible 5% reward is absurd, most people would rather take the hit to their income than risk this gamble; thus turning this whole affair into a nerf to nullsec income. With the current percentages, the risk reward balance is horribly skewed towards those trying to steal from it, so much that the best defense is clearly not using the ESS.

-Nothing prevents noobship alts from activating the thing as soon as a hostile shows up, making it just an excercise in multiboxing.

-The time required to print out tags is way too short for the defenders to assemble a defense force, especially since the warp speed of ratting ships is usually around 2.5AU/s.


Some ideas on fixing it:

-Increase the reward for using it to be comparable or greater to what is being risked.

-Increase the time to printo out tags, and possibly force the thief to remain on grid for the process, so there actually will be some conflict generated.

-Slap a minigame onto the stealing option, maybe require a hacking module. This may lead to a new role in roams that even young pilots can fill. Since currently Data sites are next to worthless compared to Relic sites, it may provide a reason to fit Data Analyzers for once.
Sygma
Appetite 4 Destruction
#39 - 2014-01-17 15:29:05 UTC
I truly hate anything to do with SOV and even I think it is a bonehead idea.

I see walking in stations part II
JanSVK
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-02-07 07:03:38 UTC
Anita Too wrote:
Agreed with the above, risk vs reward is too skewed to one side. Consider the below scenarios assuming a small group rats together and kills 500 battleship rats worth 1 mil bounty a rat pre-nerf:

i) Pre ESS = earns 500 mils per day
ii) Post ESS (Don't deploy ESS), lose 50K a BS => earns 475 mils
iii) Deploy ESS - risk 20% (200K a BS) with a potential return of additional 5% (25 mils) => earns 400 mils per day, with 125 mils at risk + 30 mils of ESS cost (32.2% reward vs risk)

Why would we risk 75 mils of income and 30 mils of equipment (105 mils total) for a potential of 50 mils reward (that is assuming you hit 25% reward straight off).

Now take the view of the thief:

i) Fully fitted interceptor (35 mils) being risked
ii) Potential return = 125 mils + Killmails (357% reward vs risk)

The risk vs reward obviously skewed towards the thieves.

Thus I have decided to be the thief and see if any idiots decide to use the ESS. If no one uses that, it would mean the ESS have just failed to do its job.


Describes it nicely.


ESS is a good idea with a bad implementation.

Another option is, CCP wanted to nerf 0.0 ratting from the beginning and wanted to fool us with the ESS.
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