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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Nijaza
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#601 - 2014-01-15 10:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nijaza
This thread has been a fun read...some things of note:

-I'm going to need more cheese for all this WHINE...

-People are bitter about interceptors being...fast

I like this idea, because it promotes fights. However, the time it takes to drop the can and loot the can needs to be extended so an defense can be organized. However, the idea of dropping tangible currency is great. If they rob you, chase them and get your money back! Its not gone in the digital nature that ISK resides in as of right now.

Also, make the reduction and boost a bit more...like most people are saying let the boost rise to a 110%. Boost the HP as well.
The LP connection is also good, perhaps you can choose for a 110% boost to bountys or a 90% bounty 10% LP's?

Point being things like this promote the kind of fights that makes EVE fun ( at least for me). Small-scale gang warfare...not that blob #@%.

Some ideas to deal with roving bands of interceptors treating ESS's as piggy banks

-Put Guns on it that Shoot Reds...0.0
-Increase the time it takes to TAKE ALL significantly...however allow hacking to be done on it to make this go quicker. This forces the roving frig gang to bring a hacking ship.

All in all this needs work but is a good idea. Why does everyone here have to b@!# at CCP for not fixing pos's, capital ship rebalance, etc? It is surely being looked at, so quit whining about it.
Dave Stark
#602 - 2014-01-15 10:13:39 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Not withstanding the nerf to nullsec ratting income. The wosrt thing about this whole ESS bollocks is that it adds an extra layer of hassle.


i think this, is really the cause of the discontent.

it's more hassle, there's very little reward for the hassle, it's not going to be "fun" in any way what so ever, there's nothing interesting about it. it's somewhat complex (i had to re-read the dev blog 3 times to understand exactly how it works properly because it was just that convoluted and ass backwards).

if it was in some way, fun, or interesting people might be less resistant to the "we're nerfing ratting income, or making it more hassle and you're really going to get nothing back for it" that it is now.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#603 - 2014-01-15 10:22:10 UTC
Can we get another CCP statement?
I assume you have read the thread from page 15 onwards (Since ~ last dev. post).

So now CCP must be aware that this is a bad idea. There are no advantages to using it for defenders, and there are likely no change for an incoming fleet. Furthermore, it's obviously shoddy designed, as seen from the number of questions and "do I need to fly to HS to get my 20%" etc, and of course as one can find out just by reading the "explanation" itself in the dev. blog. You should be concerned when members (Some even pretty high-ups) from all the bigger nullsec organisations and coalitions are against it, or when (As a PL member demonstrated before) the intended use will be as a bubble, not anything else.
As I said before: When CFC, N3, Provi, PL, NPC 0.0, Stainwagon, and various rental org.s think it's bad... it is.

In fact, when a CCP tag (Can't remember who) asked for "constructive criticism" earlier, it showed your mindset, so I guess I need to cut it out pretty clear for you: There are no magic few numbers you can tweak to make this a good idea. It is irredeemable. There, how does that go for constructive criticism?
It's constructive because I don't ask for Team Super Friends figurative heads on silver platters, and because it will be an overall improvement to your idea. It's criticism for obvious reasons.

NullSec has for ages been asking for better POS code and corp/alliance roles etc, and for less hassle with shooting or repping structures as a part of the leadup to battles. This is neither.
NullSec has also been asking for incentives to live in NullSec (Maybe because we tend to scare carebears and industrialists off...), as compared to HighSec. For example the limitless HS missions compared to the very limited 0.0 anomalies. This is not that.
NullSec has furthermore been asking for and discussing the prospects of "Farms & Fields", where small gang warfare can become viable because you can burn the farms and fields, and as a person living out there you can set up your own farms and fields, increasing the wealth of your space. This is not a "Farms & Fields" idea.
NullSec has been asking for ways to make bottom-up income work on alliance level. This is not that.
...

I'm not sure how to get the message clearer across. When a few 0.0 players asks this to be implemented across all space, it's not because it's a good idea, but because at least in 0.0, the organised players can shoot these down and deal with it, whereas it's not likely to happen in HS. A 5% nerf in 0.0 and an average of 20% nerf in HS would incentivise 0.0 simply by comparison - that doesn't redeem this piece of garbage.
Please CCP, you have a list of stuff that is wanted.
This structure isn't on that list.

Heoes don't do drugs.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#604 - 2014-01-15 10:32:51 UTC
Nijaza wrote:

-People are bitter about interceptors being...fast


Actually i think most people think interceptors are too good because they:

* Are immune to bubbles
* Enter warp almost before the session change cloak ends
* Warp faster than any other ship

Now, all of these abilities are fine individually but when you combine them in one ship, that ship is clearly OP.
Jenny Morrison
Transcargo inc
#605 - 2014-01-15 10:39:07 UTC
The ess system doesn't bring in game of new equipment, the weapon. On the contrary ess develops ways of theft and deception. Thus game about space games becomes officially game about deception and theft. Such policy of developers of game conducts to decrease in interest to it. Players the interested deception have to create ways to achieve the objects. I suggest to dismiss the management of group of developers advancing in game policy of deception and theft. To focus ordinary developers on development of the new weapon and effects.
Alex Pier
Celestial Argonauts
#606 - 2014-01-15 10:39:56 UTC
So now you do not even have to shoot people to take their stuff/money.

Hop in any interceptor go around 0.0, find deployed ESS, steal tags while ratters are hiding in POS.

I approve!!!
Snoodaard Thrasy
Yulai Guard
#607 - 2014-01-15 10:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Snoodaard Thrasy
This is no doubt going to be a redundant comment having read a couple of pages, but since I logged in specfically to say this, I may just as well.

The ESS ís by far the most pointless idea I can recall being proposed. If this goes thru - and I hope CCP has the sense to just cancel it - all it will do it cause me more drama from members and allied entities "stealing" each others ISK by deploying these units and hurting direct ratting income. I'm already having to spend time on a forum topic about if and how we should go about banning the use of this module in our space.

If CCP wants to reduce income from ratting, just do so. 5%, 10%, no problem. Just don't do it in a way that only adds to drama that draws away from the game.
interesangt
Perkone
Caldari State
#608 - 2014-01-15 10:51:38 UTC
Yep, dont fix commonly known interface/gamplay problems, create new ones.. so what im looking at is jumping into a ceptor and getting paid for flying around at the same time, burning around 0.0 claiming bountys, you know 20 min ticks and all means there will always be something to collect..

Good work!
Tradax
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#609 - 2014-01-15 10:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tradax
Out of all the things you can do this is it ? You are burning time and resources for this ?

People posting things like this will make small gang warfare viable again just makes me sad. As for game designers who came up with this it just shows that they are not really playing this game like most players do.

1) Someone who comes to put up one of these in hostile space: All ratting ships warp to POS immediately. Hostile leaves and people just blow the thing up. No ratting goes on while a hostile is in system or this thing is up. So no benefit to the hostile.
2) An Alliance is dumb enough to put one of these up in their own space: Alliance management which is already complicated and difficult to manage doesn't need this **** to further expose themselves to hostile action or create more friction between players.

Net result: 5% less income from ratting. I do not give a flying duck ! What makes me sad is that CCP has burned time and resources for this.
NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#610 - 2014-01-15 10:57:30 UTC
gonna try to be contructive here.

so far the only thing i've heard about the ESS is how terrible an idea it is to begin with because its base idea if flawed the fact it actualyl requires a 5% nerf to income to be viable means the idea wont be worth it because the risk vs reward is simply unintelligent. (sorry but it is.)

There is no way to save this idea do not attempt to you've allready made it noble exchange worthy stupidity.

we DO WANT things that will attract people to our space to PvP with us we E'ffing LOVE PvP in 0.0 but you CLEARLY have no idea what 0.0 is like. Your just sitting there in high sec or low sec thinking "wow thoese huge fights sure look like something! But they're not really my thing so..." yeah great we really apritiate that your so far BEHIND US. We're the Pioneers of Eve 0.0 is where all the crazy stuff usually comes from! we're sick of how the whole 'balance' is all about the small gang pvp stuff you got two 'I want to solo pvp from low sec' people working on it all and they have NO CLUE how terrible most of it is when thinking in the sort of scales we usually do.

Blow stuff up. We wish you wouldn't just SAY that thats what its all about... SUPPORT IT! Eve needs destruction to make the gears turn you KNOW IT so finally FIND something that will REALLY get us fired up about risk vs reward and pew pew'ing to our hearts content.

5% nerf to current ratting vs 5% bonus (OH YEESSS ITS 10% BONUS EXCEPT 5% NERF!!! WOOOHOOO!!!) 'if so and so and this risk and that risk with 25% of it possibly gone' is so far behind us in risk vs reward (AND EFFORT!) thinking that if this is the future of Eve it will DIE.

not a day I look forward to I invested so mutch time in this game and yet all I see is wasted effort from ccp time and time again I can't help but wonder if the people who recently left didn't do so because they could finally see a ship thats sinking...?

I dont know if this will even be read or understood in the way I want to try to convey it but F me is this ess stupid but atleast you tried to make it a PvP attraction... well I can tell you with the system you made for it where somebody can just warp to it and take the tags or whatever in an inty you've failed so badly I dont think you will ever be able make anything that actually will work. I hope to be proven wrong but wow are you making it hard to see.
NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#611 - 2014-01-15 10:59:34 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Can we get another CCP statement?
I assume you have read the thread from page 15 onwards (Since ~ last dev. post).

So now CCP must be aware that this is a bad idea. There are no advantages to using it for defenders, and there are likely no change for an incoming fleet. Furthermore, it's obviously shoddy designed, as seen from the number of questions and "do I need to fly to HS to get my 20%" etc, and of course as one can find out just by reading the "explanation" itself in the dev. blog. You should be concerned when members (Some even pretty high-ups) from all the bigger nullsec organisations and coalitions are against it, or when (As a PL member demonstrated before) the intended use will be as a bubble, not anything else.
As I said before: When CFC, N3, Provi, PL, NPC 0.0, Stainwagon, and various rental org.s think it's bad... it is.

In fact, when a CCP tag (Can't remember who) asked for "constructive criticism" earlier, it showed your mindset, so I guess I need to cut it out pretty clear for you: There are no magic few numbers you can tweak to make this a good idea. It is irredeemable. There, how does that go for constructive criticism?
It's constructive because I don't ask for Team Super Friends figurative heads on silver platters, and because it will be an overall improvement to your idea. It's criticism for obvious reasons.

NullSec has for ages been asking for better POS code and corp/alliance roles etc, and for less hassle with shooting or repping structures as a part of the leadup to battles. This is neither.
NullSec has also been asking for incentives to live in NullSec (Maybe because we tend to scare carebears and industrialists off...), as compared to HighSec. For example the limitless HS missions compared to the very limited 0.0 anomalies. This is not that.
NullSec has furthermore been asking for and discussing the prospects of "Farms & Fields", where small gang warfare can become viable because you can burn the farms and fields, and as a person living out there you can set up your own farms and fields, increasing the wealth of your space. This is not a "Farms & Fields" idea.
NullSec has been asking for ways to make bottom-up income work on alliance level. This is not that.
...

I'm not sure how to get the message clearer across. When a few 0.0 players asks this to be implemented across all space, it's not because it's a good idea, but because at least in 0.0, the organised players can shoot these down and deal with it, whereas it's not likely to happen in HS. A 5% nerf in 0.0 and an average of 20% nerf in HS would incentivise 0.0 simply by comparison - that doesn't redeem this piece of garbage.
Please CCP, you have a list of stuff that is wanted.
This structure isn't on that list.

Heoes don't do drugs.


I dont allways agree with Nulli but +1
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#612 - 2014-01-15 11:02:10 UTC
thinking seriously about this guys, the ess is a stupid idea BUT its not a big deal. Dont deploy the ESS simple, so what you lose 5% big whooppee dooo. Seriously on a 1 mill bounty that is only 50,000 isk you lose. so say you rat for a hour and you make 80 mill in bounty normally you would only lose 4 million ISK! that's not a massive issue is it really. The only people this will effect are the botters and the crazy ratters, and in the grand scheme of things even to those its not a massive issue. Its only if you want to be a bit greedy and want that extra 5-10%, is the risk even worth it? I would say not, botters wouldnt care, because well they are afk so they wont use it, and crazy ratters, wont even bother with the risk as they probably ratting in pimp bs or carriers. So wouldnt even worry about it, just dont use them. Its not a massive hit is it? If CCP really want to do some harm they didnt go far enough, they should of lowered it by 50% and then the ESS scales up to 100-110%

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

Sao Ricceh
Black Consuls.
#613 - 2014-01-15 11:03:55 UTC
Encounter Surveillance System (ESS) - big fail of CCP
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#614 - 2014-01-15 11:05:54 UTC
The biggest 'problem' with this is that the ones hit hardest are Single Account null sec players. If you have 2 accounts running stuff, you really don't care about some loss in ratting income, you'll still end up with 100M+ per hour. If you have more accounts you'll probably not running anomalies as your main form of income anyway, so the only ones hurt are players who wish to play the game as it's meant to be played.

Baddest poster ever

Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#615 - 2014-01-15 11:08:38 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
thinking seriously about this guys, the ess is a stupid idea BUT its not a big deal. Dont deploy the ESS simple, so what you lose 5% big whooppee dooo. Seriously on a 1 mill bounty that is only 50,000 isk you lose. so say you rat for a hour and you make 80 mill in bounty normally you would only lose 4 million ISK! that's not a massive issue is it really. The only people this will effect are the botters and the crazy ratters, and in the grand scheme of things even to those its not a massive issue. Its only if you want to be a bit greedy and want that extra 5-10%, is the risk even worth it? I would say not, botters wouldnt care, because well they are afk so they wont use it, and crazy ratters, wont even bother with the risk as they probably ratting in pimp bs or carriers. So wouldnt even worry about it, just dont use them. Its not a massive hit is it? If CCP really want to do some harm they didnt go far enough, they should of lowered it by 50% and then the ESS scales up to 100-110%


Thanks for sharing your really terrible thoughts on this issue.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.

Snoodaard Thrasy
Yulai Guard
#616 - 2014-01-15 11:09:05 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Dont deploy the ESS simple, so what you lose 5% big whooppee dooo.


Agreed. So what this amounts to is CCP introducing a module that forces the entities it was intended for to prohibit its use.
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#617 - 2014-01-15 11:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: GallowsCalibrator
CCP SoniClover wrote:


The increased payout is reset each time the ESS is emptied, so you can do that, but then you´re never getting the full payout.


I don't know if anyone's responded to this yet (because this is a 31 page WTF it seems), but this is an even bigger 'screw you'. Deploying one of these is flat out a detriment.

Make this thing extreme and it might be interesting. (Say, drop to 50% base bounty, spool up on the module from 100-200%) then at least it's got some serious risk-reward. As it is now, mechanically, I can't see it EVER being worth deploying one of these. Even then, interceptors need looking at as well before doing this (Or print time should be modified based on the value stored).

Edit: And maybe give the damn things a 20k-50k shield bubble before hostile access or something, so you at least need to work to break the pinata. (that amount of HP with a DPS interceptor isn't going to take too long to work through, but it gives a delay to allow response. The print-time delay adds dimishing returns to bringing an over-large gang to kill because additional DPS isn't going to affect that.)

Voila!

Edit 2: Some more idle ideas -

additional bonus matching ESS type to racial pirates
ESS converts a small amount of bounty to LP to alter reward type
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#618 - 2014-01-15 11:22:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
I had my problems with some of this new deployable thingies but this one, it is absolutly great. You can measure how great it is by all the tears coming from Goons etc.
I want this ESS for lowsec in two flavours for ISK and FW LP and of course for highsec. ASAP please and i can't stress how much of a conflict driver this will be, especially in highsec this ESS will be hilarious.

One thing you should consider for the 0.0 and later on lowsec ESS make the 15km bubble special so T3 and Inties aren't immune to it and most problems are solved. Maybe add a build in cynojammer.

Edit:
Even better, do not allow noobships to be able to activate the pay out.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#619 - 2014-01-15 11:36:22 UTC
I wonder what CSM members have to say about this brilliant device since apparently they knew about it since first drafts so let's hear their side now when NDA gag is gone. How did you imagine application or driving conflicts with this structure when you were talking about it with devs? I guess all null representants are above peasant activities like ratting so harassment factor probably was more attractive to them. So tell me how will you harass me with this new deployable and how gloriously it will enhance your gameplay experience. I cannot wait to see another snarky and condescending one-liner Malcanis will produce this time.

Invalid signature format

Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#620 - 2014-01-15 11:39:35 UTC
"Of Peasants and Lords"

My friends and tell me about this piece of land they conquered.
It was a long fight to remove the previous occupants, so i heard.
They work together to improve it, to harvest it, to benefit from it.
Yet barbarians try to pillage it, or simply harass its occupants.

I hear some hide behind their walls and wait for them to leave.
I hear that some beg their lords for protection, often for a price.
I even hear that some take arms to fight and drive them out themselves.

Tales from the east sing of a wonder machine.
That shall improve harvest in the coming winter.
An investment to be made with risks for sure.
But also rewards that we´re yet to know and take.

The reactions to these songs are many and distinct.
Some dismiss it at fairy tales, and will continue their hardworking harvest.
Some, say they´ll burn it at sight, so it doesn´t draw attention to their land.
Yet some plan to benefit from it ar rip every reward that it shall give.

"You must think of the danger" i often hear.
"It will be honey to bees for those barbarians"
"Don´t they already raid from time to time?" i often reply.
"Yes, but we can hide and wait for them to leave"
"So shall you keep doing if that is your wish"

"With this machine, they´ll steal our harvest"
"With hiding peasants, they could steal the entire land"
"Our lords would never allow it!"
"Then call on them for your protection"
"They are far and set to their own schemes"
"Shouldn´t you serve better lords then?"

"Why can´t we all get along? I just want to plow and harvest in peace!"
"The human nature is as colourful as the rainow. Some seed, some take"
"I wish the barbarians would just stay out and mind their own business"
"You have a land, a production, and plan on wishing away your troubles?"
"It worked so far. Cry to the gods loud enough and they respond!"
"Leave your fate to the gods and your lords and no life shall be called your own"

"Cry loud enough" i think to myself laughing.
Men have become whinny children , frail babies.
I wonder if the gods are pleased with this behaviour.
And question if the barbarians are not their tool to tough them up.

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