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Crime & Punishment

 
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Freighter bumping and keeping aggro with newbie ship legal?

Author
Pipa Porto
#41 - 2014-01-12 09:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Christian Lionbate wrote:
The freighter could not move because of bumping.


Nor can a miner while he's being bumped. What's your point?

Quote:
The guidance makes clear that some bumping is acceptable but excessive or repeated bumping is not (I even underlined the word you seem to have missed).


The guidance makes it clear that stalking someone across the face of EVE is against the rules. Not that bumping someone twice is a problem.

Quote:
Using game mechanics to hold the freighter for that amount of time to has be wrong.


So find where CCP shows any indication that they agree with you.

If the Freighter pilot wants to get away, they're free to log off, self destruct, or eject.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#42 - 2014-01-12 13:37:39 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
If the Freighter pilot wants to get away, they're free to log off, self destruct, or eject.


Or pay a ransom? Many of us honor ransoms, you know......and he had lots of time to search and see if the guys bumping him were Honorable Internet Space Pirates.........

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Stellar Fitzgerald
Valmet Oy
#43 - 2014-01-13 07:52:40 UTC
I got reply from GM. He really did not answer my question, gave a diplomatic answer, talked about reimbursement which I did not talk myself with a single word.

My point was: IS THE GAME BROKEN and GM did not address that matter with a single word. Just going round robin.

So, CCP official answer is clear:
The phenomenon on topic is LEGAL.

However, same thing if ship disappears from space in the meantime - is ILLEGAL.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=300515
Yes I was in the end, on emergency warp. :) I was killed on the emergency warp. However, my ship did not disappear from space in the meantime. But still I was on emergency warp, could not do anything. If this is not metagaming then what is?

So, CCP is in my opinion allowing the things they cant prohibit with their current version of game. Its so simple. HOWEVER, with the login/noshipinspace, the thing can be manually monitored so much more easier, THEY CAN SEE IT FROM LOGS. The same **** phrase again: OUR LOGS SHOW NOTHING. If its not on logs, it did not happen.



And yes I had support fleet, I brang 2 armor logistics to try to outrep the gank. I was a lil disoriented of the attack so the webbing of freighter did not come to my mind but later. YES I HAD SO MUCH TIME, I logged in alt and my corpmate came to help too. We had Oneiros and Guardian repping the Obelisk the moment the gank hit. We had so much time that we bought them from jita, fitted and flew to grid. Actually we had so much time we could have done it 5 times.

Yes I admit I was tired, wanted to move assets from Jita (not 4-4 station) to Sobaseki (1 jump), I kind of knew its risky. But I did not know of its possible to do the thing on topic. I dont blame myself for stupidity. I just did not know the matter on topic is possible with new game mechanics (new to me). Now I know and if I go to it again, I blame myself for stupidity.

I rest my case. :)
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-01-13 13:32:52 UTC
Christian Lionbate wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Christian Lionbate wrote:
Freighter was trying to move to another location, persistent bumping was preventing that. Do try to keep up.


Let's see if you can get it with fewer words to distract you:

GM Karidor wrote:
moving a few thousand meters ... would not qualify in this regard. Ideally you would move to other systems and more than just one or two jumps to avoid being found again quickly,


I get it just fine Pipa, we just disagree on interpretation. The quoted guidance is set out to address miner bumping but it sets perimeters as to what is and is not acceptable. The freighter could not move because of bumping. The guidance makes clear that some bumping is acceptable but excessive or repeated bumping is not (I even underlined the word you seem to have missed). I think the the amount of time the freighter was held for was excessive and qualifies as harassment. Had this been a well planned op and the bumping been used to hold the freighter whilst a fleet warps in then fine but, clearly, this op was done on the fly and took an hour to put together. Using game mechanics to hold the freighter for that amount of time to has be wrong.

I think CCP's definition of 'excessive' is more in the line of 'following a single player around for days, bumping and ganking anything that he flies making it impossible for him to do anything'. Not bumping someone for just an hour while setting up your gank fleet.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#45 - 2014-01-13 18:39:47 UTC
Hey OP, as someone currently researching and trying to get an interview with this exact ganker (as he has been warming the cockles and sub-cocular regions of this hisec miscreant), he usually asks for and honors a RANSOM before executing his ganks...

Didn't you ultimately die because you refused to pay the ransom offered?

EvE, every action (or inaction) a consequence.

Maxpie
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#46 - 2014-01-13 18:59:35 UTC
Obviously, OP put too many eggs in one basket and freighter bumping/ganking is perfectly legal. However, I tend to think that at some point, an hour, 3 hours, I don't know how long, but at some point this becomes harassment. If I have to stay logged on an extra 4 hours because of a noob ship bumping me, that's just ridiculous.

No good deed goes unpunished

Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-01-14 14:34:09 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Obviously, OP put too many eggs in one basket and freighter bumping/ganking is perfectly legal. However, I tend to think that at some point, an hour, 3 hours, I don't know how long, but at some point this becomes harassment. If I have to stay logged on an extra 4 hours because of a noob ship bumping me, that's just ridiculous.


Engagements lasting several hours is not something extraordinary in EVE. I think this falls nicely into that category.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#48 - 2014-01-14 16:53:46 UTC
My understanding is that a specific practice is deemed an exploit. Intentionally bumping a freighter isn't an expoit. Ganking a freighter isn't an exploit.

Bumping a freighter for great lengths of time and only engaging him criminally AFTER he logs of (when trying to enter e-warp), then scanning him down off the gate and ganking him in the next 15 minutes is considered an exploit.

The part where the exploit comes in is where you intentionally wait for the target to log off and then engage once he is out of game to start the 15 min log off timer. My understanding is the 'engage only after the target leaves the game' is the offensive part. It makes sense that intentionally engagings someone not in game is not an approved game mechanic.

Historically doing things that are dependant on the other player disconnecting are seen as 'bad'. If the real world breaks your connection (be it a hardware, software, continuity of power OR real life commitment) then you have left the game and are not elligible to be engaged/ganked or whatever.

Bumping a guy until he intentionally logs off (I see this as surrendering) and then killing him to me seems legit, BUT as always proving the reason someone left the game is not possible, SO engaging on this thin slice of play know as post log off has defaulted to exploit.

Why do it this way instead of just ganking the freighter on the gate?? It gets the loot scooper off the gate so that when he loots and gets a suspect flag he has a margin of safety from all the other folks in eve that may now shoot him. Man up gankers. The target was man enough to undock a 25 bil isk freighter - you should be man enough to scoop the loot on a gate instead of wimping out and using the e-warp to keep you RELATIVELY SAFE.

Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#49 - 2014-01-15 02:44:18 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Man up gankers. The target was man enough to undock a 25 bil isk freighter ...


LOL, I like this. You have nicely linked being male with being stupid.

IMHO undocking a 25b-isk-cargo freighter is not really a symptom of manliness but rather a symptom of some form of lack of awareness.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2014-01-15 05:40:01 UTC
tl;dr: you got owned and you want CCP to make you whole because who said EVE is supposed to be challenging?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Lady Areola Fappington
#51 - 2014-01-15 08:35:34 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Obviously, OP put too many eggs in one basket and freighter bumping/ganking is perfectly legal. However, I tend to think that at some point, an hour, 3 hours, I don't know how long, but at some point this becomes harassment. If I have to stay logged on an extra 4 hours because of a noob ship bumping me, that's just ridiculous.



CCP has said, if you have to follow someone to the point of using locator agents, it crosses a line. Also, insistent bumping that prevents the target from taking ANY action (note, this isn't "action I want to take") for long periods of time is frowned on.

CCP isn't going to help the miner out who gets bumped off an icecube, and keeps returning. They have ample time to go elsewhere, get a PVP ship, something to combat the bumper. They also won't say anything about the freighter who gets pingponged for 15 minutes while a gank fleet moves in.

Now, the guy who gets ping-ponged for 4 hours, with no chance to warp, move away, or anything....yeah, CCP (and me, for that matter) will frown on that and take action.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-01-15 11:11:58 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Maxpie wrote:
Obviously, OP put too many eggs in one basket and freighter bumping/ganking is perfectly legal. However, I tend to think that at some point, an hour, 3 hours, I don't know how long, but at some point this becomes harassment. If I have to stay logged on an extra 4 hours because of a noob ship bumping me, that's just ridiculous.



CCP has said, if you have to follow someone to the point of using locator agents, it crosses a line. Also, insistent bumping that prevents the target from taking ANY action (note, this isn't "action I want to take") for long periods of time is frowned on.

CCP isn't going to help the miner out who gets bumped off an icecube, and keeps returning. They have ample time to go elsewhere, get a PVP ship, something to combat the bumper. They also won't say anything about the freighter who gets pingponged for 15 minutes while a gank fleet moves in.

Now, the guy who gets ping-ponged for 4 hours, with no chance to warp, move away, or anything....yeah, CCP (and me, for that matter) will frown on that and take action.

4 hours to call for help, help that could come in all kinds of forms, reppers, webbers, ecm boats. With time like that it doesn't even matter you don't have anyone to batphone in, you have a good chance of asking locals to help you out, hire mercenaries or whatever.

There will always be grey areas however and as CCP has shown in the past, they judge on a case to case basis in those. What happened to OP seems perfectly legit to me however.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#53 - 2014-01-15 11:31:06 UTC
How exactly did this work? Okay, the freighter gets bumped to prevent warping and aggressed by a noobship to prevent logoff. But the aggression must spawn Concord, meaning that when the Taloses arrived on grid for the gank, CONCORD is already there and its response time is much quicker. Did they just bring enough Taloses to beat even the already-spawned CONCORD?

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-01-15 13:21:26 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Why do it this way instead of just ganking the freighter on the gate?? It gets the loot scooper off the gate so that when he loots and gets a suspect flag he has a margin of safety from all the other folks in eve that may now shoot him. Man up gankers. The target was man enough to undock a 25 bil isk freighter - you should be man enough to scoop the loot on a gate instead of wimping out and using the e-warp to keep you RELATIVELY SAFE.

Gypsio III wrote:
How exactly did this work? Okay, the freighter gets bumped to prevent warping and aggressed by a noobship to prevent logoff. But the aggression must spawn Concord, meaning that when the Taloses arrived on grid for the gank, CONCORD is already there and its response time is much quicker. Did they just bring enough Taloses to beat even the already-spawned CONCORD?


You both kinda answer each others questions here. The reason for the bumping (beyond keeping the Freighter out of alignment), has little to do with looting (any random looter with a brain will see whats going on, and follow the bumping, not being on gate makes no difference here), it is to bump the future gank target out of range of the Concord spawn generated by the original aggression. The bumper gets the target out of alignment, the sacrificial aggressor shoots the target, gets Concorded, and starts the aggression timer to prevent logoff, then the bumper can use the 15 minute window to get the target as far as possible from the Concord spawn, so when the gank squad engage, the Concord spawn either has to warp to the gank site, or an entirely new spawn pops up.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#55 - 2014-01-15 14:15:51 UTC
My question was actually rhetorical. I think (sure) it works like this: Frustrated freighter pilot can't get to gate or into warp because of bumping. Frustrated frieighter pilot logs of. Ibis bumper sees frustrated freighter pilot log off. Ibis shoots freighter causing concord to respond. Ibis gets popped. Freighter e warps (with 15 min agression flag) to log off location. Gank squad scans freighter down and gankes it. Concord responds.

If the ibis is only there for bumping and not as a post log off aggro sacrifice, then there are a lot better bumping ships and gankers are dumb for using newb ships (this is sarcasm - they are not dumb).

I think this thread is more about is bumping and exploit? No
Is bumping a freighter until he logs off, then shooting him and then ganking him an exploit? Yes

Work around - don't log your freighter pilot off when you're getting bumped. Don't put 25 bil in cargo. Don't....
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-01-15 15:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
That's where you are missing the point - the gankers are not trying to make someone log off; whether they log off or not is immaterial, the noob ship getting aggression is in case the target logs off. And getting aggression would always be best done before the pilot logs off anyway, because unlike warping to a gate/station/etc, an ewarp can be in any direction, and if the noobship waits until after the logoff, if the bumper is really unlucky, he might be actually bumping in the direction of the ewarp, and the prize is lost before aggression can be made. And I wasnt implying the noobship was the bumper, as you say, that would be dumb (the OP mentioned a Mach, which is the ideal bumping ship).

As I mentioned in my previous post (and this is how its worked every time I've been involved in the gank), the bumping solves the double purpose of keeping the ship from warping away (to a specific safe destination), and moving them away from the site of the original Concord spawn. Therefore, there is no need for forcing the target to ewarp away, as a bumping Mach can easily coast the target the 150+km away from Concord needed to stop the initial spawn interfereing in the gank. Don't get me wrong, if the target has logged off with aggression, it's often worthwhile to let the ewarp go through (although, unless the gank squad has a prober in system, this is risky, since if the target cant be probed fast enough, the target might be trying to log off, then straight back in hoping to shake the bumper) as this solves the spawn problem, but is by no means part of the standard procedure.

Long story short - staying logged on is not, in and of itself, going to save you from a gank-in-progress (although, actions you can take while logged on may do).
trader joes Ichinumi
Doomheim
#57 - 2014-01-15 23:38:56 UTC
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
I'd say this would fall under harassment in terms of bumping. With multiple attempts to leave and even to log off over the course of an hour while they just kept harassing the freighter.


I kinda wish Eve would reword this provision. SO many people misunderstand it.

You have to do something extreme for it be harassment. As a general rule, harassment needs to be profitless, long term and targeted at the guy behind the keyboard. Bumping a 25 billion isk freighter in order to eventually kill it is fine.

Had they decided to bump a random freighter for for an hour because they wanted to **** the guy off, that would be harassment. Doing it for 25 billion isk is fine.
trader joes Ichinumi
Doomheim
#58 - 2014-01-15 23:44:06 UTC
Stellar Fitzgerald wrote:
I got reply from GM. He really did not answer my question, gave a diplomatic answer, talked about reimbursement which I did not talk myself with a single word.

My point was: IS THE GAME BROKEN and GM did not address that matter with a single word. Just going round robin.

So, CCP official answer is clear:
The phenomenon on topic is LEGAL.

However, same thing if ship disappears from space in the meantime - is ILLEGAL.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=300515
Yes I was in the end, on emergency warp. :) I was killed on the emergency warp. However, my ship did not disappear from space in the meantime. But still I was on emergency warp, could not do anything. If this is not metagaming then what is?

So, CCP is in my opinion allowing the things they cant prohibit with their current version of game. Its so simple. HOWEVER, with the login/noshipinspace, the thing can be manually monitored so much more easier, THEY CAN SEE IT FROM LOGS. The same **** phrase again: OUR LOGS SHOW NOTHING. If its not on logs, it did not happen.



And yes I had support fleet, I brang 2 armor logistics to try to outrep the gank. I was a lil disoriented of the attack so the webbing of freighter did not come to my mind but later. YES I HAD SO MUCH TIME, I logged in alt and my corpmate came to help too. We had Oneiros and Guardian repping the Obelisk the moment the gank hit. We had so much time that we bought them from jita, fitted and flew to grid. Actually we had so much time we could have done it 5 times.

Yes I admit I was tired, wanted to move assets from Jita (not 4-4 station) to Sobaseki (1 jump), I kind of knew its risky. But I did not know of its possible to do the thing on topic. I dont blame myself for stupidity. I just did not know the matter on topic is possible with new game mechanics (new to me). Now I know and if I go to it again, I blame myself for stupidity.

I rest my case. :)


So you admit there were ways to deal with it, you just didn't think of them.

As another idea, you could have transferred some of the items to a corpmate by jettisoning them. Your corpie almost certainly would have gotten them before the enemies if you told him beforehand.
Bundi Panala
Doomheim
#59 - 2014-01-15 23:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bundi Panala
Istyn wrote:
Yes. This is nothing new.

Highsec isn't 100% safe. Loading your freighter with 20 odd bil was your first mistake. As for making the game more 'realistic' by removing meta-gaming, have you ever seen Eve's marketing?


You mean the trailers promising Joe-Blow-Nobody that he'll become a super-special-warlord in under a week in his little frig? I love those, it's like Obamacare for gamers.
Mister Simms
Society for Miner Education
#60 - 2014-01-16 00:10:06 UTC
FWIW, Concord warps one fleet for each ganker. If there is a Concord fleet next to the frieghter from the noob ship aggression, that means that only one of the ultimate gank squad will have a very fast Concord response. The rest will have to wait until their personal Concord fleets either spawn or warp to the location.