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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#801 - 2014-01-14 17:16:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

My point is that the existence of NPC controlled industry at such a level as currently exists is the root cause of the problem. It de-incentivizes manufacturing anything else.

So do you agree with the suggestion that nerfing resource processing efficiency and the number of manufacturing slots in highsec will make null more attractive to industrialists?

If your answer is yes, then what are your thoughts, expressed multiple times in the thread, that the behavior of many null citizens toward industrialists in highsec have ruined their interest in nullsec?

If your answer is no, then what nerf (if any) do you feel would provide enough incentive to move to Null?


To the first question.

You MUST deal with the elephant in the room. Highsec crowds out the possibility of other industry. The only real industries that exist outside of highsec are capitals and wormholes, both of which are not by choice.

To the second question.

And? They still like money. The ones who want to go, will go. The ones who don't? **** em. When there's actually a void to fill, capitalism will fill it. It's not like the industrialists who are upset at nullsec don't realize that some of their goods are bought by nullsec.

Right, so what about my questions? You want to make industry possible in nullsec (to a greater degree than it already exists). Capitalism operates successfully under a set of enforced laws. It can't operate fully in a lawless place. Null is the jungle. The only laws there are set by the Alliances. If the Alliances support (through indifference or actively) the historical actions against industrialists, then capitalism can't work there.
What of my questions?
Etria Issen
Imperial Varista
#802 - 2014-01-14 17:23:46 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if CCP takes the same view on risk/reward as they do with ship cost/power.

To roughly quote a dev blog - "an exponential increase in ship base price corresponds to a linear increase in ship power"

note they didn't specify any specific exponent. so we can only take this to mean that for a ship to double in power, it's going to cost WAY more than double the isk.

likewise, i see the same with risk/reward. if risk doubles, profit doesn't.. for profit to double, the risk needs to go WAYYYYY up.

is this good or bad? i have no idea - it's just the nature of EVE.

the game has been around an awfully long time, so it can't be completely broken.


The thing is, the profits might actually be increasing enough to make it low/null worth it.

If there wasn't the human factor. The human factor is whats messing up the profits between every space. Going into low/null suddenly means every single person you see, can blow you up if they want.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#803 - 2014-01-14 17:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Prince Kobol wrote:
Please tell everybody how you obtain 100% refinery and 300+ manufacturing lines in a player built station. Don't forget to explain the cost and how you accomplish this.


Perfect refining in an outpost as explained by some blog:

http://eveblog.allumis.co.uk/?p=1168 (and I'm pretty sure he's using the old numbers as this is an old post. I think the Minmatar refining outpost has been improved since this blog post)

As far the Amarr Factory Outposts - I think the maximum slots is actually 210, but that's still enough to absolutely crush the production capabilities of all of highsec from a slot viewpoint.

In terms of costs: these are alliance level of assets. Last I checked a basic egg was like 20b+, and then you have to pay more to upgrade them.

I'll say one thing though: an outpost is one of the only things in the game a player can create, that cannot be destroyed.

I think it's justified that they cost a lot. Heck, a Titan costs a hell of a lot more than that, and those go *boom*
Prince Kobol
#804 - 2014-01-14 17:42:55 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Please tell everybody how you obtain 100% refinery and 300+ manufacturing lines in a player built station. Don't forget to explain the cost and how you accomplish this.


Perfect refining in an outpost as explained by some blog:

http://eveblog.allumis.co.uk/?p=1168 (and I'm pretty sure he's using the old numbers as this is an old post. I think the Minmatar refining outpost has been improved since this blog post)

As far the Amarr Factory Outposts - I think the maximum slots is actually 210, but that's still enough to absolutely crush the production capabilities of all of highsec from a slot viewpoint.

In terms of costs: these are alliance level of assets. Last I checked a basic egg was like 20b+, and then you have to pay more to upgrade them.

I'll say one thing though: an outpost is one of the only things in the game a player can create, that cannot be destroyed.

I think it's justified that they cost a lot. Heck, a Titan costs a hell of a lot more than that, and those go *boom*


"Therefore, to be effective in null sec production, you not only need a Minmatar Outpost for refining, you also need to upgrade that to level 1 refinery (approximate cost of around 6 or 7 billion ISK if memory serves), and then make sure you have Refining V, Refinery Efficiency V, Specific Skills to IV and at least the 2% implant"

Not much then....
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#805 - 2014-01-14 17:48:42 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Please tell everybody how you obtain 100% refinery and 300+ manufacturing lines in a player built station. Don't forget to explain the cost and how you accomplish this.


Perfect refining in an outpost as explained by some blog:

http://eveblog.allumis.co.uk/?p=1168 (and I'm pretty sure he's using the old numbers as this is an old post. I think the Minmatar refining outpost has been improved since this blog post)

As far the Amarr Factory Outposts - I think the maximum slots is actually 210, but that's still enough to absolutely crush the production capabilities of all of highsec from a slot viewpoint.

In terms of costs: these are alliance level of assets. Last I checked a basic egg was like 20b+, and then you have to pay more to upgrade them.

I'll say one thing though: an outpost is one of the only things in the game a player can create, that cannot be destroyed.

I think it's justified that they cost a lot. Heck, a Titan costs a hell of a lot more than that, and those go *boom*


"Therefore, to be effective in null sec production, you not only need a Minmatar Outpost for refining, you also need to upgrade that to level 1 refinery (approximate cost of around 6 or 7 billion ISK if memory serves), and then make sure you have Refining V, Refinery Efficiency V, Specific Skills to IV and at least the 2% implant"

Not much then....


2 outposts per production setup.

This is the part where I laughed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#806 - 2014-01-14 17:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Prince Kobol wrote:
"Therefore, to be effective in null sec production, you not only need a Minmatar Outpost for refining, you also need to upgrade that to level 1 refinery (approximate cost of around 6 or 7 billion ISK if memory serves), and then make sure you have Refining V, Refinery Efficiency V, Specific Skills to IV and at least the 2% implant"

Not much then....


Also: doing things perfectly generally requires an investment in skillpoints. Welcome to EVE.

edit: it looks like they didn't change the refining rates -- but I'm still not convinced by your argument that doing things perfectly should be easy just because you live in nullsec.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#807 - 2014-01-14 17:57:08 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
"Therefore, to be effective in null sec production, you not only need a Minmatar Outpost for refining, you also need to upgrade that to level 1 refinery (approximate cost of around 6 or 7 billion ISK if memory serves), and then make sure you have Refining V, Refinery Efficiency V, Specific Skills to IV and at least the 2% implant"

Not much then....


You must have missed this sentence

"(and I'm pretty sure he's using the old numbers as this is an old post. I think the Minmatar refining outpost has been improved since this blog post)"

Meaning: it was possible before, and it's easier now.

Also: doing things perfectly generally requires an investment in skillpoints. Welcome to EVE.

You must have missed the post right above yours which pretty adequately sums up why this is ********.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#808 - 2014-01-14 17:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Why are you replying to an edited post 5 minutes after I edit it?

Fail.

At least timestamps don't lie, unlike EVE players Blink
Prince Kobol
#809 - 2014-01-14 18:01:58 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
"Therefore, to be effective in null sec production, you not only need a Minmatar Outpost for refining, you also need to upgrade that to level 1 refinery (approximate cost of around 6 or 7 billion ISK if memory serves), and then make sure you have Refining V, Refinery Efficiency V, Specific Skills to IV and at least the 2% implant"

Not much then....


You must have missed this sentence

"(and I'm pretty sure he's using the old numbers as this is an old post. I think the Minmatar refining outpost has been improved since this blog post)"

Meaning: it was possible before, and it's easier now.

Also: doing things perfectly generally requires an investment in skillpoints. Welcome to EVE.


Really, so the cost of 2 stations, lets say 20bil per station, ihub (250mil) and upgrades (500mil in total) say about 40bil to get to something like you have in HS is worth it?

So before you even start mining you would have to spend upwards of 40bil just to get close to a NPC station in HS.

Perfectly balanced :)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#810 - 2014-01-14 18:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Prince Kobol wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
"Therefore, to be effective in null sec production, you not only need a Minmatar Outpost for refining, you also need to upgrade that to level 1 refinery (approximate cost of around 6 or 7 billion ISK if memory serves), and then make sure you have Refining V, Refinery Efficiency V, Specific Skills to IV and at least the 2% implant"

Not much then....


You must have missed this sentence

"(and I'm pretty sure he's using the old numbers as this is an old post. I think the Minmatar refining outpost has been improved since this blog post)"

Meaning: it was possible before, and it's easier now.

Also: doing things perfectly generally requires an investment in skillpoints. Welcome to EVE.


Really, so the cost of 2 stations, lets say 20bil per station, ihub (250mil) and upgrades (500mil in total) say about 40bil to get to something like you have in HS is worth it?

So before you even start mining you would have to spend upwards of 40bil just to get close to a NPC station in HS.

Perfectly balanced :)


You get to choose where it's located.

You get to choose what it does.

You get to choose taxes.

They can demonstrably outperform highsec stations.

Yeah, seems pretty balanced to me. There is a sandbox. If you choose to not participate in it - that's your problem.

(btw, 40b should be pennies to alliances big enough to consider outposts)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#811 - 2014-01-14 18:06:02 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Why are you replying to an edited post 5 minutes after I edit it?

Fail.

At least timestamps don't lie, unlike EVE players Blink

I replied to the post as it was when I loaded the page. Don't be a moron.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#812 - 2014-01-14 18:11:54 UTC
Etria Issen wrote:
I feel there's some irony that EVE's open-world PvP nature, is the direct reason hisec is probably in this kind of state. If people didn't associate low and nullsec with "I can get blown up by any random person.", or if it wasn't such a likely scenario if you're in a weak, mostly defenseless ship...

Hisec's danger is, largely, NPCs. This is something CCP has direct control over. As hisec is largely safe in this state, stuff isn't too valuable up here.

The problem being lowsec and nullsec, while still having NPC risks, now have a factor that is uncontrollable by CCP - the players. They probably 'scale' lowsec/nullsec to the NPCs, increasing the value of stuff found there proportionally. The problem is the human factor. The scaling doesn't fit the fact that by going into lowsec or nullsec, you now gain an entire new problem that is completely unscalable: other players.

As someone mentioned at some point, EVE is a lot about risk and reward. And by going into low/null, your risk skyrockets through the roof due to the human factor. The rewards scale to the NPC factor, but CCP has no way to figure out how much the human factor is 'worth' in the risk equation. If you probably looked at all three sectors from just the pure NPC risk, they probably scale very nicely.

The human factor completely ruins it though.


This makes all kinds of sense to me.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
TharOkha
0asis Group
#813 - 2014-01-14 18:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

My point is that the existence of NPC controlled industry at such a level as currently exists is the root cause of the problem. It de-incentivizes manufacturing anything else..


LOL if this statement was true then why most of reaction farms are in lowsec?.. that means as close to trade hubs as possible?

Problem of nullsec industry is failed supply chain of basic input materials like tritanium.

Go ahead, remove hisec industry completely. You know what will happen? It would move all industry to the nearest manufacturing slots available (lowsec stations or POSes, with a closest proximity to Jita or Amarr as possible).

This wouldn't fix null sec industry at all. Why? Because of it remoteness, no supply chain management from alliance leaders and no local large scale market.

Again, trying to do industry in null (and make profit) is like trying to make cars in Antarctica.


Its the close proximity of main trade hubs (both in quantity and variety of goods) what makes hisec industry superior, not the number of manufacturing slots or instillation costs.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#814 - 2014-01-14 18:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
TharOkha wrote:
Again, trying to do industry in null (and make profit) is like trying to make cars in Antarctica.


But this is just because of imbalance.

If things were balanced, the noble car producing Antarcticans would get discernible advantages for all their extra effort and incurred risk.

Perhaps car manufacturing facilities near population centers should be nerfed, instead? What about higher taxes for them, and reduced manufacturing capabilities in the form of crippling labor laws?

Only then will we see the glories of the Antarctic Motor Group (AMG) in full swing - rightfully getting their deserved profit margins and stomping out the dirty highsec car industry.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#815 - 2014-01-14 18:29:23 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
[

Again, trying to do industry in null (and make profit) is like trying to make cars in Antarctica.


Its the close proximity of main trade hubs (both in quantity and variety of goods) what makes hisec industry superior, not the number of manufacturing slots or instillation costs.


Its a simple matter of costs. High sec has very little costs while null, low and WH have much higher costs. Highsec simply undercuts everywhere else.
Etria Issen
Imperial Varista
#816 - 2014-01-14 18:36:04 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
TharOkha wrote:
Again, trying to do industry in null (and make profit) is like trying to make cars in Antarctica.


But this is just because of imbalance.

If things were balanced, the noble car producing Antarcticans would get discernible advantages for all their extra effort and incurred risk.

Perhaps car manufacturing facilities near population centers should be nerfed, instead? What about higher taxes for them, and reduced manufacturing capabilities in the form of crippling labor laws?

Only then will we see the glories of the Antarctic Motor Group (AMG) in full swing - rightfully getting their deserved profit margins and stomping out the dirty highsec car industry.


But how do you balance nullsec, for instance? CCP can balance risk/reward when it comes to NPCs, as that's something they can control.

How can you put a pricetag on the risk of human players? When you hit low/null, you're fair game for everything you see on screen practically. Your risk skyrockets, but the reward part doesn't keep up due to the human factor throwing it all off. How does one put a 'value' on the risk of human players?
TharOkha
0asis Group
#817 - 2014-01-14 18:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
baltec1 wrote:
TharOkha wrote:
[

Again, trying to do industry in null (and make profit) is like trying to make cars in Antarctica.


Its the close proximity of main trade hubs (both in quantity and variety of goods) what makes hisec industry superior, not the number of manufacturing slots or instillation costs.


Its a simple matter of costs. High sec has very little costs while null, low and WH have much higher costs. Highsec simply undercuts everywhere else.


baltec1, as i wrote earlier. Outposts needs a buff like 100% refine rate or more "free" manufacturing slots and maybe more expensive hisec installation costs.

But its just solve only a minor problem. Lets hypothesize that serious nerf to hisec slots was implemented. (5m to installation costs for example)

Lets just say that manufacturing of one battleships would cost 95m in nullsec, while 100m in hisec. market price is ,lets just say 105m.

Success.. you've made 10m from single BS while hisec industrialist made 8 battleships with total profit 40m.? Why? because you dont have materials for 8 battleships, you dont have well supplied trade hub out there in nullsec. You can mine those materials but as you wrote earlier, you dont have the numbers for such large mining ops while hauling it from hisec would be still inefficient (it takes full loaded Jump Freighter of minerals to build just 3-4 battleships)

That´s why nobody is making cars in Antarctica. That´s why hisec industrialist are willing to pay several hundreds of milion isk for single BPCs while their profit is only 10m per BPC. But they make dozens of it per single day. Because they have a material for it (quantity). Because industry it about quantity, not about the level of margin.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#818 - 2014-01-14 18:58:25 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
.

If things were balanced



Why should they be?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#819 - 2014-01-14 19:11:11 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
TharOkha wrote:
[

Again, trying to do industry in null (and make profit) is like trying to make cars in Antarctica.


Its the close proximity of main trade hubs (both in quantity and variety of goods) what makes hisec industry superior, not the number of manufacturing slots or instillation costs.


Its a simple matter of costs. High sec has very little costs while null, low and WH have much higher costs. Highsec simply undercuts everywhere else.


baltec1, as i wrote earlier. Outposts needs a buff like 100% refine rate or more "free" manufacturing slots and maybe more expensive hisec installation costs.

But its just solve only a minor problem. Lets hypothesize that serious nerf to hisec slots was implemented. (5m to installation costs for example)

Lets just say that manufacturing of one battleships would cost 95m in nullsec, while 100m in hisec. market price is ,lets just say 105m.

Success.. you've made 10m from single BS while hisec industrialist made 8 battleships with total profit 40m.? Why? because you dont have materials for 8 battleships, you dont have well supplied trade hub out there in nullsec. You can mine this material but as you wrote earlier, you dont have the numbers for such large quantities and hauling it from hisec would be still inefficient (it takes full loaded Jump Freighter of minerals to build just 3-4 battleships)

That´s why nobody is making cars in Antarctica. That´s why hisec industrialist are willing to pay several hundreds of milion isk for single BPCs while their profit is only 10m per BPC. But they make dozens of it per single day. Because industry it about quantity, not about the level of margin.


Low ends can be imported cheaply in compressed forms and high ends we can mine ourselves. With your plan we would be able to have an industry which would support our empire. We are not Antarctica, our space is not the arse end of nowhere and we are the biggest market for military supplies.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#820 - 2014-01-14 19:15:36 UTC
The difference is, that little bit of efficiency is really the difference between viability of production for self use and having to import all the goods.

It might not seem like that matters so much, but that's how it goes.

No amount of miner amnesty programs will change that right now.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.