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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#761 - 2014-01-14 15:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
admitting that acquiring or hiring protection for miners is more feasible in null as alpha is less important and PVPers have a better chance in getting into fights.

But this is what doesn't sit well with me; this hypocrisy (and I don't mean necessarily from you but instead) from null sec players.

I don't want to make this about hi sec suicide-ganking because this is not what this thread is about. However, I find it quite amusing that the advice that has been provided ad nauseum to hi sec miners doesn't apply to null, when in fact it is MORE relevant.


It's not more relevant.

It's much, much less feasible.

A mining fleet with guards in nullsec space is nothing except more killmails than a mining fleet by itself.

Why is it less feasible? Is the protection not adequate enough? And if so, why?

It seems to me that, if hi sec miner ganking is "all about the alpha" in hi and this is not the case in null, using protection in null sec is more effective in deterring attacks than it is in hi sec. Why do you disagree?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#762 - 2014-01-14 15:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

I agree with most of what you are saying.

But they are still profitable and they are still worth doing.

If you do intend to fit a new ship in null, you need rigs anyways:

So you can either:

1) Ship your data/relic loot to highsec, sell it there....and then buy rigs there, and ship them back

or

2) Take your data/relic loot and turn them directly into rigs right in nullsec.


But you have to go back to High to get your ship anyway, and the parts to fit it with

Even if they are available up there, the extra difficulty in obtaining the materials to build say for example a Buzzard and the few people doing it means that its a sellers market.

You may as well sell the loot and buy your ship and fit in high and bridge back up, though again, that quite expensive.

You see what Im saying though? The factors that multiply the difference are more than just lines available or anti-Buzzard camps.

Yes, Null sites are profitable, but without mlarge alliance support in one way or another, almost any other activity can be (note: CAN be, ie usually is) extremely expensive in terms of infrastructure, time and/or diplomacy


Shrug. You have limited cargo hold which you admitted yourself.

What's preventing you from the selling finished rigs to a nearby alliance/corp at a discount vs jita prices to save you the time/hassle of traveling back and forth to offload your loot?

I can imagine they burn through things like T2 trimarks pretty damn quickly.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#763 - 2014-01-14 15:36:46 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
admitting that acquiring or hiring protection for miners is more feasible in null as alpha is less important and PVPers have a better chance in getting into fights.

But this is what doesn't sit well with me; this hypocrisy (and I don't mean necessarily from you but instead) from null sec players.

I don't want to make this about hi sec suicide-ganking because this is not what this thread is about. However, I find it quite amusing that the advice that has been provided ad nauseum to hi sec miners doesn't apply to null, when in fact it is MORE relevant.


It's not more relevant.

It's much, much less feasible.

A mining fleet with guards in nullsec space is nothing except more killmails than a mining fleet by itself.

Why is it less feasible? Is the protection not adequate enough?



Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#764 - 2014-01-14 15:37:16 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


Shrug. You have limited cargo hold which you admitted yourself. (Edit: What? Whats this got to do with it? And I mentioned cargo in relation to an interceptor, so... what?)

What's preventing you from the selling finished rigs to a nearby alliance/corp at a discount vs jita prices to save you the time/hassle of traveling back and forth to offload your loot?

I can imagine they burn through things like T2 trimarks pretty damn quickly.


Usually, the fact that as you are not part of them, they will kill you as soon as see you?

That in all likelyhood they are already importing trimarks from Highsec, if not they are already manufacturing themselves from ratting?

And why on earth would you want to sell in null FOR LESS than you can get in High?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#765 - 2014-01-14 15:37:46 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:


What I've noticed is, and this deserves emphasis, that these few vocal null sec players refuse to explore the root cause of the 'null sec industry problem'. On a few occasions it has been admitted by them on this very thread that low end miners are needed in null sec. But they refuse to accept that those they have spent years loathing and ridiculing are the solution to their problems.

Their tears are delicious!! Big smile

Yeah, it's probably pretty painful for them to accept that the people they love to mock and ridicule are in fact needed in the game. They want what we bring, but they don't want us. Derp.

I can't even tell you how tempted I am to run ammo or frequently used T2 modules out to null in a BR and price it twice what it is in highsec. I bet it would sell. The premium attached to convenience! I'm about 23 days from a BR and I just might do that to see what happens. If I can afford the hull, heh.

There is so much sparring going on that is just muddying the water. It might be helpful if the nullsec community can come to some sort of plurality on the central question: Is there a problem with industry in nullsec, and do we want to do something about it?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#766 - 2014-01-14 15:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


Shrug. You have limited cargo hold which you admitted yourself. (Edit: What? Whats this got to do with it? And I mentioned cargo in relation to an interceptor, so... what?)

What's preventing you from the selling finished rigs to a nearby alliance/corp at a discount vs jita prices to save you the time/hassle of traveling back and forth to offload your loot?

I can imagine they burn through things like T2 trimarks pretty damn quickly.


Usually, the fact that as you are not part of them, they will kill you as soon as see you?

That in all likelyhood they are already importing trimarks from Highsec, if not they are already manufacturing themselves from ratting?

And why on earth would you want to sell in null FOR LESS than you can get in High?


Because it takes time and energy to go back and forth to highsec to nullsec? It's the same reason I'd rather sell something locally and quickly where I am than go 30 jumps to get 5% more profits.

I thought that was the whole point of like the last 10 pages. Goons complaining that they wanted to manufacture in nullsec to ease up on the logistics but that it *cough* was not possible.

"Not enough slots" - so they say Roll
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#767 - 2014-01-14 15:43:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

Two things. First: So? So you have to fight? What's the problem? Isn't the game all about shooting spaceships? Don't you want to be in on killmails yourself? Or are you suggesting the enemy is simply better than you or better able to field a larger fleet?

Second: So?! Bring in your own reinforcements. Set up a picket line to harass and distract. FIGHT!

How often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you? And again, *so what*!? You guys like to fight, so fight! Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#768 - 2014-01-14 15:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:


What I've noticed is, and this deserves emphasis, that these few vocal null sec players refuse to explore the root cause of the 'null sec industry problem'. On a few occasions it has been admitted by them on this very thread that low end miners are needed in null sec. But they refuse to accept that those they have spent years loathing and ridiculing are the solution to their problems.

Their tears are delicious!! Big smile

Yeah, it's probably pretty painful for them to accept that the people they love to mock and ridicule are in fact needed in the game. They want what we bring, but they don't want us. Derp.

I can't even tell you how tempted I am to run ammo or frequently used T2 modules out to null in a BR and price it twice what it is in highsec. I bet it would sell. The premium attached to convenience! I'm about 23 days from a BR and I just might do that to see what happens. If I can afford the hull, heh.

There is so much sparring going on that is just muddying the water. It might be helpful if the nullsec community can come to some sort of plurality on the central question: Is there a problem with industry in nullsec, and do we want to do something about it?


There's a pretty good blog post of a guy who did just what you described (seeded NPC stations with goods from highsec).

I think he found it to be pretty profitable, but got bored with it. He had a list of the most used PvP items and put the same stock in every station he could get to, and refilled them periodically.

And yes, the markup was insane -- people are lazy as hell in null (as far as logistics and industry is concerned)

...I'm also pretty sure he was using a jump freighter instead of a blockade runner, lol. Blockade runers might not have the kind of cargo you need to really seed a station.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#769 - 2014-01-14 15:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

OK, then it sounds to me, and you're not going to want to hear this, you're unable to defend your territory, operations, and your system of things. If you're being outnumbered/overpowered and you are unable/unwilling to defend your ops, then perhaps the problem is with the weaker alliance? Help me out, show me what I'm missing here.

Have you considered perhaps reducing your territory to a more manageable size? One that would allow you to concentrate your military muscle more effectively?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#770 - 2014-01-14 15:50:39 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

Two things. First: So? So you have to fight? What's the problem? Isn't the game all about shooting spaceships? Don't you want to be in on killmails yourself? Or are you suggesting the enemy is simply better than you or better able to field a larger fleet?

Second: So?! Bring in your own reinforcements. Set up a picket line to harass and distract. FIGHT!

How often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you? And again, *so what*!? You guys like to fight, so fight! Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more.


When you get hotdropped, you have no choice whether you fight or not. The problem is, that if I am trying to bait out and kill a black ops team, there is better bait out there than a carebear mining fleet.

But I wouldn't be trying to bait out a black ops team. I would be trying to let you guys do your thing and make me stuff. Which wouldn't happen.

"picket line"? Do you know what a cyno is?

"how often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you?"

Most people keep black ops teams on standby, so... every time they find the miners. All day, every day. You can't exactly hide that many people.

"Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more"

What, you mean like killing their miners? Wait, they don't have that particular massive point of vulnerability.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#771 - 2014-01-14 15:50:57 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:


What I've noticed is, and this deserves emphasis, that these few vocal null sec players refuse to explore the root cause of the 'null sec industry problem'. On a few occasions it has been admitted by them on this very thread that low end miners are needed in null sec. But they refuse to accept that those they have spent years loathing and ridiculing are the solution to their problems.

Their tears are delicious!! Big smile

Yeah, it's probably pretty painful for them to accept that the people they love to mock and ridicule are in fact needed in the game. They want what we bring, but they don't want us. Derp.

why do you people buy into this 'pvpers versus industrialists' bullshit

it's not true and never has been
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:

Two things. First: So? So you have to fight? What's the problem? Isn't the game all about shooting spaceships? Don't you want to be in on killmails yourself? Or are you suggesting the enemy is simply better than you or better able to field a larger fleet?

Second: So?! Bring in your own reinforcements. Set up a picket line to harass and distract. FIGHT!

How often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you? And again, *so what*!? You guys like to fight, so fight! Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more.

or just do it in highsec for more gain
Anslo
Scope Works
#772 - 2014-01-14 15:54:41 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Who cares? It's a ******* game. Get over it, nerds.


Hey Anslo!
I once lost 100m to an impersonator of yours (and by this I mean I'm a fan, cause I agreed to loan someone I thought was you ISK XD)

Of course after filing petition I got the ISK back ^^.

What are your thoughts on whether hisec should be nerfed?

It's shouldn't. The impersonator was fed to ill tempered sea bass. Sorry for the mishap.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#773 - 2014-01-14 15:56:52 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

OK, then it sounds to me, and you're not going to want to hear this, you're unable to defend your territory, operations, and your system of things. If you're being outnumbered/overpowered and you are unable/unwilling to defend your ops, then perhaps the problem is with the weaker alliance? Help me out, show me what I'm missing here.

Have you considered perhaps reducing your territory to a more manageable size? One that would allow you to concentrate your military muscle more effectively?


Do you not know how black ops works?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#774 - 2014-01-14 15:57:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
When you get hotdropped, you have no choice whether you fight or not. The problem is, that if I am trying to bait out and kill a black ops team, there is better bait out there than a carebear mining fleet.

But I wouldn't be trying to bait out a black ops team. I would be trying to let you guys do your thing and make me stuff. Which wouldn't happen.

"picket line"? Do you know what a cyno is?

"how often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you?"

Most people keep black ops teams on standby, so... every time they find the miners. All day, every day. You can't exactly hide that many people.

"Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more"

What, you mean like killing their miners? Wait, they don't have that particular massive point of vulnerability.

I'm sorry, but this sounds like alliance incompetence! This shouldn't be something CCP should have to fix. AT ALL.

Your mining ops are failing due to your alliance's inability/unwillingness to protect its miners properly.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#775 - 2014-01-14 15:58:59 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
When you get hotdropped, you have no choice whether you fight or not. The problem is, that if I am trying to bait out and kill a black ops team, there is better bait out there than a carebear mining fleet.

But I wouldn't be trying to bait out a black ops team. I would be trying to let you guys do your thing and make me stuff. Which wouldn't happen.

"picket line"? Do you know what a cyno is?

"how often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you?"

Most people keep black ops teams on standby, so... every time they find the miners. All day, every day. You can't exactly hide that many people.

"Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more"

What, you mean like killing their miners? Wait, they don't have that particular massive point of vulnerability.

I'm sorry, but this sounds like alliance incompetence! This shouldn't be something CCP should have to fix. AT ALL.

Your mining ops are failing due to your alliance's inability/unwillingness to protect its miners properly.


Again, I'm going to claim that I don't think you know how black ops works.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Prince Kobol
#776 - 2014-01-14 16:01:25 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

OK, then it sounds to me, and you're not going to want to hear this, you're unable to defend your territory, operations, and your system of things. If you're being outnumbered/overpowered and you are unable/unwilling to defend your ops, then perhaps the problem is with the weaker alliance? Help me out, show me what I'm missing here.

Have you considered perhaps reducing your territory to a more manageable size? One that would allow you to concentrate your military muscle more effectively?


The issue from an industry point of view is that it doesn't matter if no mining ships pops and all live, its that is you will not be able to mine.

So you can launch mining op after mining op but if they are only going to last say 30mins or an hour before they have to dock because of a red fleet how long do you think those miners are going to last in null?

What they can earn from mining in null is not going to make up that short fall.

it is why I loved the idea of ring mining.

This was something which could only be done in null sec by miners, the isk they would make would be substantially more then they could make elsewhere, so you have more risk = more reward.

If you were to improve player built stations then industry in null would receive a boost and everybody wins.

Unfortunately I doubt we will ever see such as thing because at the moment Eve appears to be a game in maintenance mode as CCP are wasting money on stupid projects like Dust Roll
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#777 - 2014-01-14 16:01:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Do you not know how black ops works?

You're digging your own grave here. I'd stop if I were you.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#778 - 2014-01-14 16:03:30 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Do you not know how black ops works?

You're digging your own grave here. I'd stop if I were you.


Oh, do tell.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#779 - 2014-01-14 16:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Prince Kobol wrote:
The issue from an industry point of view is that it doesn't matter if no mining ships pops and all live, its that is you will not be able to mine.

So you can launch mining op after mining op but if they are only going to last say 30mins or an hour before they have to dock because of a red fleet how long do you think those miners are going to last in null?


OK. I get this. But how is nerfing hi sec industry (and tightening the supply of low end minerals further) going to help null sec accomplish more successful mining ops? Nerfing hi sec still means you need to go to hi sec to get your minerals which, now are in lower supply. It does nothing to fix the root cause.

Quote:
What they can earn from mining in null is not going to make up that short fall.

But the problem hasn't been effectively fixed because if interruption is the problem before, interruption is still the problem after. Sure, you may have bumped the price by a fraction of a decimal. But you're still unable to mine effectively.

Quote:
If you were to improve player built stations then industry in null would receive a boost and everybody wins.


I actually agree with you on this. And adjusting hi sec's industry may do the game some good, as well. I don't know. Like I've said before, there needs to be a root cause analysis done to figure out what exactly is the problem here. And as with other threads, it simply hasn't been presented clearly. And as long as it's being muddied with contempt and hidden personal emotional agendas (admittedly from both sides) this will be nothing but a means to rant against those 'other players'.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#780 - 2014-01-14 16:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
But the problem hasn't been effectively fixed because if interruption is the problem before, interruption is still the problem after.


That is unbelievably dense.

The existence of interruption is not the problem.

It's the fact that there is nothing the inferior economic capacity of nullsec can do better than highsec.

So nothing, absolutely nothing, is worth the interruption.

If highsec were not the elephant in the room, then anything industrial in nullsec might be worth the chance of getting dropped on.
Quote:

But like I've said before, there needs to be a root cause analysis to figure out what exactly is the problem here.


The problem is that player owned industry < NPC owned industry.

There. That's it, the end.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.