EVE General Discussion

Given you ignored most of my post, I'll ignore most of yours.



Moving goods around in highsec is considerably more risky than moving it around in lowsec/nullsec. Freighters are slow as hell, and vulnerable. There is a pretty low ceiling of how much stuff you can haul in one load.



Costs 500k/jump, takes them a good 12 - 36 hours to haul it for you, and there is a strict limit of 1 billion collateral -- specifically because of the risk inherent in hauling stuff around in highsec. They're a good service, but it's not exactly a fast/efficient way to move a lot of goods. To give you an idea of the dangers of hauling in highsec -- Red Frog members still get suicide ganked even when they follow their own rules of 1b max collat.

Contrast it to lowsec/nullsec, where you can comfortably load up a jump freighter with 5b+ in goods and travel what amounts to infinitely faster than a freighter, and infinitely safer.

Nothing?

I'm going to quote you on that too, James.

The most customers, best prices, and greatest overall availability of merchandise (one-stop shopping) will continue to be found in a centralized, safe location regardless of how many slots are allocated to null. As long as high sec exists it will continue to translate into more opportunities and thus better gameplay for industrious folk.

(On something of a side note, I wonder how the economy would respond if say for 6-months to a year there was a sustained pvp atmosphere maintained in the existing 6 hubs. What would emerge then? Where would people go? Could new mini-hubs be spontaneously generated? A rapid dispersal of industry? In other words, to improve their own industry, instead of begging for resource reallocation, what would happen if null sec declared war on high sec's economy?)


Let's not be disengenuous. I know the average intellect present in GD has dropped (which I still hope against hope is because the rational people are now writing in F&I or on devblogs and haven't left entirely) but comeon, you guys don't just want more slots because that won't cut it. That's just the first step in an incremental process. You're going to want more of everything. All of the high sec ores in greater quantities, more slots, perfect refining - everything - 100% self-sufficiency - or it will continue to be easier to transport high-end minerals to high-sec than low-end minerals to null.

The inherent risk of living in low/null sec space makes it substandard to high sec for industry. You don't build an automobile plant in a warzone. You cannot remove this risk entirely (nor would you want to) so you cannot equalize the costs with a comparable system in a relatively safe area just by buffing your slot numbers.

With high sec already having perfect refine rates available with a little fealty and a superior slot system (because those systems exist as part of thousand-year old, long-established EMPIRE space,) from my pov, all you guys can hope for is that CCP will nerf high sec into the ground, making it cost-prohibitive to engage in high sec industry. You need high sec's complete annihilation, which maybe is what Rubicon is slowly leading us toward. I don't know.

But that's the only way null becomes a more attractive choice - for industry - no matter how much booty it receives. Will fundamentally altering the nature of high sec matter to CCP's profit margin? If you guys get your way, we may well find out. It just seems to me that the first step to getting what you're asking for would be to stop begging and declare war on high-sec's economy and attempt to annihilate it yourselves. Spike the prices of everything and destroy the hubs. Disincentivize it manually. Then, a year from now, check back to see if this circular argument has changed shape.

Imo, it isn't in the best interest of the game to give any sec space everything it needs so I can't support that. You guys are going to have to visit high sec sometime and not just to gank miners. Sec interdependency is necessary and by design.

Balancing of resources between secs should have less to do with making sense (or enriching null sec publords) and more to do with facilitating pgc and maximizing player retention - even if foiling the megalomanical dreams of a few people in null is an unintended secondary effect.

But with enough gumption, I suspect you could effect change that would help mitigate your issues. I'm less sure if it can be done on a large enough scale to matter - which is why I recommended long-term engagements at the hubs.

It's a sandbox, isn't it? You've got a problem. Time to kick some sand.

imo.

YK

So what? This has nothing to do with industry. We don't need customers and trade to feed our war machine, we need materials and production.

You should actually read his post. He already pre-countered the above argument you just made. Gone. Done. Try again.

Seriously, read/think more, and sperg less.

Also: it DOES have to do with industry. That's what we are talking about.

No, there's a tremendous market advantage for doing industry where you actually have the slots and production capabilities of highsec.

Are you completely unaware that selling things in nullsec generally leads to greater profit margins, and depending upon what you sell the trade volume isn't all that low either?

I don't agree with that. Now it has nothing to with the hubs or industry either? Comeon. They're interconnected. And you need everything. The cake, the party, and the people eating it. I'm not saying that null doesn't need more slots per se, (it may, but that's not going to solve the fundamental problem of high sec industry being more efficient on its own. You'll still need the materials and then the perfect refine rates. So, yes, everything.) And even then, high sec will still have greater safety, numbers, and turnaround. You'll be able to charge more, but with only 15% of characters as customers, you're still playing a niche market and trying to compete with a superior economic engine. A far simpler path to industrial superiority is the disincentivization of high sec industry (whether that's accomplished by bombing raids or CCP devs) so that the added logistical costs and effort necessary make logical sense, as opposed to demanding the entire game be restructured to better suit your goals.

imo.

YK

This is part of why highsec needs to be nerfed. They need to lose the perfect refine.

340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about.

It's more than 95% of high sec systems have. Probably more than 99% of high sec systems have. Only the few truly silly super industry systems in high sec have more. And given how many more null sec systems there are than high sec, to match High Sec's total number of slots, you don't need anywhere near the same density as high sec has. Especially since a lot of high sec slots aren't used.

So, lets throw some random assumptions around.
50% of High Sec slots aren't used currently.
No industry happens in low/null worth including.

Then we look at where all the industry goes. I believe someone had some figures earlier that 60% of ships get destroyed in Null or something? (Not searching entire thread for it). Lets then believe Null people that generally a lot of these ships killed in high are all frigates, and say 75% worth of industry effort ships are destroyed in Null?

So.... To supply all of Nulls needs, You only need the equivalent of 37.5% of the current number of slots in high sec, with 5 times as many systems to do so in.

Yes, this is based on some assumptions, but reasonable ones. All the Null people have been saying a lot of slots go unused, and I agree, I see it myself and think those high sec super hubs could easily be nerfed. (System specific, not across the board since there are area's in high which are low in slots already).
Obviously at least some of High Sec's production gets used in High Sec.
And High Sec islands are included in the figures while the reality is they don't contribute to the main high sec production, and are most likely unused (Mostly)

So, if you can't do 37.5% of the output.... then you aren't even trying. Because quite simply, you can do it.

This is why I think it might be possible to move a trade hub into Null, if a big Alliance were to commit to a solid 6 month long campaign to make it 'safe enough' for traders to move in that direction. And if CCP makes Null stations a little more attractive for refining. Make it a bread crumb thing. FInd a station in .6 and make it popular by loading it up with great deals and buy orders for everything for a few months. Then, when people are getting used to coming there, move it a few more jumps into .4 space and repeat for another couple months. Then into .1 space. Guard the gates ferociously, popping any pirates trying to hassle traders. In 6 months to a year, it could happen.