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Gallente-Caldari Relations, Are They Improving?

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Author
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#41 - 2014-01-12 01:32:05 UTC
Oh, right. It seems my color settings were off kilter!

Katrina Oniseki

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#42 - 2014-01-12 04:15:53 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
So in response to the original post, while Federation and Caldari relations may be quieting somewhat, Caldari and Caldari relations are not.

That's just standard Corporate rivalry. A little competition keeps us on our toes and moving forward.

As for Caldari Gallente relations. I can't say they are really improving all that much; we don't seem to like each other any better, but the conclusion of the Caldari prime thing has resulted in less vitriol thrown about which should allow for relations to potentially improve some.

The proxy war going on will probably stall improvements some, though.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#43 - 2014-01-12 04:22:13 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


I have a missile guidance technician called Havaima Tsuurtsen. He's Civire, like me, and his family were one of the original colonists sent out to the Enaluri system. Respectfully, suuolo, his family is the reason he's out here. Because, to certain people, Black Rise ought to be Gallente space and the tyranny of the many is ready to descend from the borders at Ichoriya all the way to Urpiken constellation if we don't fight.

Indeed that is part of the reason the proxy war still continues. It was sparked for political and social reasons. Caldari and gallente don't like each other, and some people on either side gave a little push and violence erupted, but now that it's started, everyone wants land. On top of that, the more sociopathic of the capsuleers (who are the main fighting force) are doing it for their sick enjoyment.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#44 - 2014-01-12 16:37:54 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

And, this, Gesakaarin, is why Ishukone manages the majority of Caldari Prime, and you are, as Tuulinen put it, in the muck and the blood.

Have fun with that.


Yes, you have a knack for profiting from the hard work of others. It is an honest compliment, because it takes some skill to pull this off, and at least in this case it's for the better of all caldari, although one should remember how it came to this situation in the first place, because if not for your dear primitive colleagues you'd still be sipping tea, pining for the days of yore, when we actually were able to set foot on Home as more than mere guests.
Well, maybe you'll choke on what you're sucking for it, maybe not, only time will tell. In the meantime I'm blissfully busy being kneedeep in blood and muck, because that still feels like a cleaner job than yours.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#45 - 2014-01-12 19:01:25 UTC
I recently spoke with a capsuleer within the State's militia. He too did not see the point in this war, but said the pay was so good that he did not leave the militia yet. He also mentoined that most of the militia consists mostly of pilots who are in it for money and/or piracy.
Talking about morale issues...for some reason, he also mentioned he was going to rob his current corporation within the militia.
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-01-12 20:03:15 UTC
A fascinating story, i'm sure.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#47 - 2014-01-12 20:49:17 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
So in response to the original post, while Federation and Caldari relations may be quieting somewhat, Caldari and Caldari relations are not.

An insightful and telling observation. But I think many within the Federation, including myself have long past the point where we consider an amicable peace possible.


If you've decided that already, James, you may have made yourself correct. Never lose the faith in your fellow man. The Federation and Caldari may have heated issues that will never be forgotten, but trust me that they don't like to kill and die any more than the next man.

As easy as it is to be cynical, the universe slowly moves towards cooperation as we become more civilized. It's just a long process and we, as capsuleers, are directly involved in the more conflict-driven processes. Nobody calls a capsuleer to help build a hospital, after all, we're seen largely as tools of destruction rather than people.

As a man of faith, I would think you know in whom to put your trust. It isn't the practical mechanics of the conflict that lead me to despair, its the philosophical underpinnings of it.

But perhaps your correct.

Lets hope so.
Ailer Stane
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-01-12 21:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ailer Stane
It has taken me some time but I have read many of the past postings made by the primary contributors to this forum regarding "peace". To say that individual views regarding the conflict and possibility of peace have evolved is an understatement. I am most troubled to see that some have lost hope in even the possibility of peace. I would humbly suggest to my Federation comrades that seeking peace is the morally right path, to my State friends the honorable one. Being thus both right and honorable shouldn't we together strive toward that happy and eventual reality?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2014-01-12 22:19:21 UTC
Ailer Stane wrote:
It has taken me some time but I have read many of the past postings made by the primary contributors to this forum regarding "peace". To say that individual views regarding the conflict and possibility of peace have evolved is an understatement. I am most troubled to see that some have lost hope in even the possibility of peace. I would humbly suggest to my Federation comrades that seeking peace is the morally right path, to my State friends the honorable one. Being thus both right and honorable shouldn't we together strive toward that happy and eventual reality?



You're talking to the wrong people, my friend. I, for one, would gladly set out in search of peace tomorrow - but the fact is that militia pilots don't control that process. We don't get to decide when peace will happen - politicians do that.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Ailer Stane
Doomheim
#50 - 2014-01-13 02:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ailer Stane
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ailer Stane wrote:
It has taken me some time but I have read many of the past postings made by the primary contributors to this forum regarding "peace". To say that individual views regarding the conflict and possibility of peace have evolved is an understatement. I am most troubled to see that some have lost hope in even the possibility of peace. I would humbly suggest to my Federation comrades that seeking peace is the morally right path, to my State friends the honorable one. Being thus both right and honorable shouldn't we together strive toward that happy and eventual reality?



You're talking to the wrong people, my friend. I, for one, would gladly set out in search of peace tomorrow - but the fact is that militia pilots don't control that process. We don't get to decide when peace will happen - politicians do that.

With sincere respect I disagree. Without the participation of the individual factional militia pilot, there is no proxy war. The very act of individual participation, past the point of personal revelation to the contrary, demonstrates the individual participants tacit approval of the endeavor at large. Please don't mistake me for a blurry eyed idealist. I understand the pull to defend ones own against attacks both real or perceived. But it remains in the end an individual act of choice.
Jace Sarice
#51 - 2014-01-13 06:11:50 UTC
Ailer Stane wrote:

With sincere respect I disagree. Without the participation of the individual factional militia pilot, there is no proxy war. The very act of individual participation, past the point of personal revelation to the contrary, demonstrates the individual participants tacit approval of the endeavor at large. Please don't mistake me for a blurry eyed idealist. I understand the pull to defend ones own against attacks both real or perceived. But it remains in the end an individual act of choice.


It is absurd to equate an individual choice to participate with individuals being the cause of the conflict. The underlying causes of the conflict exist regardless of an individual militia member participating. In order for the militia members themselves to directly instill peace, all of them would have to choose not to participate. This is then no longer an individual action, but an aggregate one that is out of the control of each participant.
Ninavask
Alexylva Paradox
#52 - 2014-01-13 06:27:55 UTC
Here is hoping tensions do disappear and a mutual peace can be worked towards.

Dr. Ninavask Revan

Colonist

Alexylva Paradox

The views above are the opinions and beliefs of Dr. Ninavask and do in no way reflect on his employeers or associates at the time of posting.

Edgar Audeles
Cogwerx LTD.
#53 - 2014-01-13 06:45:45 UTC
Ninavask wrote:
Here is hoping tensions do disappear and a mutual peace can be worked towards.


And here is my glass raised to this. We all bleed red in the end and its disheartening to hear war still grips my home and the home of my good friends.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2014-01-13 16:23:18 UTC
Ailer Stane wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ailer Stane wrote:
It has taken me some time but I have read many of the past postings made by the primary contributors to this forum regarding "peace". To say that individual views regarding the conflict and possibility of peace have evolved is an understatement. I am most troubled to see that some have lost hope in even the possibility of peace. I would humbly suggest to my Federation comrades that seeking peace is the morally right path, to my State friends the honorable one. Being thus both right and honorable shouldn't we together strive toward that happy and eventual reality?



You're talking to the wrong people, my friend. I, for one, would gladly set out in search of peace tomorrow - but the fact is that militia pilots don't control that process. We don't get to decide when peace will happen - politicians do that.

With sincere respect I disagree. Without the participation of the individual factional militia pilot, there is no proxy war. The very act of individual participation, past the point of personal revelation to the contrary, demonstrates the individual participants tacit approval of the endeavor at large. Please don't mistake me for a blurry eyed idealist. I understand the pull to defend ones own against attacks both real or perceived. But it remains in the end an individual act of choice.


I do understand the emotions behind what you're saying, but my colleague says it right when he points out the impossibility of the decision being made in the manner that you suggest it be made in. The fact is that as long as the signatory nations decide the war is worth the money, there will be militia freelancers willing to collect it.

Money is the sinew of war. Shut off the money and end the war.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#55 - 2014-01-13 16:26:49 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
To soon to tell.


I concur. In my experience, diplomacy between the two happens on a knife's edge. One shift from the center, and all of it comes crashing down.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#56 - 2014-01-13 18:00:32 UTC
Oniseki-Charantes-haani, your point may have been too subtle for some of our kirjuun to notice.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#57 - 2014-01-13 18:11:40 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Oniseki-Charantes-haani, your point may have been too subtle for some of our kirjuun to notice.


It happens.

Katrina Oniseki

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2014-01-13 19:47:26 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Oniseki-Charantes-haani, your point may have been too subtle for some of our kirjuun to notice.


Her pun, you mean?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#59 - 2014-01-13 19:50:03 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
Oniseki-Charantes-haani, your point may have been too subtle for some of our kirjuun to notice.


Her pun, you mean?


Don't worry about it.

Katrina Oniseki

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2014-01-13 23:34:48 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


I do understand the emotions behind what you're saying, but my colleague says it right when he points out the impossibility of the decision being made in the manner that you suggest it be made in. The fact is that as long as the signatory nations decide the war is worth the money, there will be militia freelancers willing to collect it.

Money is the sinew of war. Shut off the money and end the war.


Also, it's simply a matter of what drives the war. If it were really about a principle of governance or a matter of security, the war would have been quick, it would have been bloody, but it probably would have been resolved by now. Unfortunately, the war isn't necessarily a war of principle per se (though some of the belligerent pilots are probably fighting it based on principle). This war was essentially legislated, its boundaries defined, its most important assets removed from harm's way, and then it was decided that it would continue indefinitely.

Let's say that all current combatants suddenly ceased fighting on a whim, leaving the systems where they were. If even one pilot flies in, he could essentially take over all of those systems. All of these systems not only have valuable mineral resources, but in a lot of cases people actually are still living in them. That's simply unacceptable to either side, depending to which party our hypothetical capsuleer belongs. So someone will inevitably arrive to make sure this doesn't happen, then someone else would arrive to make sure the pendulum doesn't swing the other way, and so on until we are right back where we started again.

Add to that, our hypothetical scenario would never work. For some, this is a business opportunity but for others this is simply an outlet for their racial hatred or political outrage. I've often wondered if this latter group of capsuleers is why the two legislated wars continue. It keeps us busy hating each other rather than looking back at the injustices of our own empires. You know, some people in government think we're blindly violent.

And so the war shall continue, never-ending, back and forth, eating up resources, with the power to do anything about it essentially completely out of capsuleer hands. They can stop fighting, but they'll never end the war. The legislation is such that the CEWPA essentially mandates an infusion of military assets just to make sure that the battle lines don't move too far in one direction or the other. If the armies stop, if we as capsuleers just decide we won't play the little game that the CEWPA zone has become, it would only take one pilot to essentially own it all. Thus shall we all continue to sacrifice to the blood god that CONCORD preaches for in the name of "peace".

And there isn't anything any of us can do about it. Our leaders are completely prepared to continue this ritual in perpetuity, essentially holding these systems hostage and threatening to hand them over to the "enemy" if they do not fight tooth and nail for them. It's sad that these areas have already become desolated by this action. Shipping into these areas has become expensive, given that any factional members are subject to becoming valid war targets, so the prices have been driven up. That's as profits have gone down. The constant swing back and forth of governmental control in those areas has meant that anyone that isn't involved in the warfare have removed anything of value. The economies of these places are now wholly dependent on the war and the only ones making enough money to eat there are the pilots.

At first, I couldn't believe anyone would participate in this sham, but Pieter is completely right. Not participating would be to hand any Caldari in the system to the Federation in his case, and to hand all of those systems over to their control. And the Gallente are in the same position. Even if they would stop tomorrow, dividing those systems straight down the middle and letting all bygones be bygones tomorrow, they can't. It isn't up to them; it's now interstellar law. The warzone will remain exactly where it is, under the exact same threat, until a treaty puts an end to all this foolishness.

Until then, those capsuleers can only ferry their crews out to die.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26