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Non-scannable locations in space

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#121 - 2014-01-12 01:53:49 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
My view is that no ship larger than a cruiser should be able to fly in (gravitational forces putting too much stress on higher mass ships or something). This would mean a site could not be camped with a fleet of supercaps and then farmed. It would keep combat and exploration fast and fluid. It would also mitigate somewhat agàinst local since it could still be worth your time to inve§tigate given that ghose in the DDC will have exactly the same advantages and disadvantages.

I would be happy for ships to disappear from local upon entering the cloud though. Then anyone already in wouldn't know if the player left system or entered the cloud...more paranoia in this case can only be a good thing...

If you put in a movement element, like my described currents, then slower ships would be unable to reach certain areas.

Ref currents from this post in this thread.

Now, if they compromised their fits to overcome the currents, then they would likely to be balanced reaching such areas too.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#122 - 2014-01-12 02:57:13 UTC
+1 from me!

And +1 for adding those 'Recon 3/3 Toxic Gas Clouds' area of effect damage, that tries to murder your boat in a 'pocket' of that cloud around 100km- but in what direction??

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
My view is that no ship larger than a cruiser should be able to fly in (gravitational forces putting too much stress on higher mass ships or something). ..


No but maybe the battleship size would be the 'largest' possible entity to enter those clouds in highsec and lowsec.

Now I have to take all that bad things back that I said about the Nestor,
you accidentely made this a good ship. Now she only needs two less turret hardpoints and a 125% laser damage bonus and she will be good to go.

Capital class ships in nullsec and wh clouds.

Maybe there could even be pirate occupation that takes place according to 'where' the clouds are located, say

- Guristas in Caldari highsec, lowsec, nullsec
- Serpentis in Gallente highsec, lowsec, nullsec
- Sanshas in Amarr highsec, lowsec, nullsec
- Angel in Minmatar highsec, lowsec, nullsec,

but with the 'twist' that you don't know for sure, since you could run into a Blood Raider Haven by accident in Gallente space.

- Navigation 'beacons' should decay after two hours, like jetcans, so you will have to do all the scouting again, if you decide to go back later
- Microjump beacons could 'stay' longer in those clouds but may jump you into one of those 'toxic clouds' -oops
- maybe pods could warp to a celestial outside of the cloud after you lost your ship but not back in

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#123 - 2014-01-12 03:41:21 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

- maybe pods could warp to a celestial outside of the cloud after you lost your ship but not back in


This is a decent proposal.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#124 - 2014-01-12 03:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
As I think more about it, these could be done best as small WH pockets, rather than complexes inside an existing system. When I say small I mean about 10,000 by 10,000 across. Flying through would put you on numerous different grids, each with different characteristics. Some would slow you down, others might speed you up, others might try to destroy you, etc. Figuring out the internal layout of the pocket would be part of the challenge. D-Scan would not work, except on the grid where you were currently located. There would be no local. Cloaks would not work consistently in this space. You could only warp to spots where you had already placed a warp beacon (warp beacons could be new mobile structures). Otherwise, it would be flying everywhere. There could be multiple WH entrances into one of these areas, but each one could have a relatively short lifespan. There would be no mass restrictions.

Basically, I'm thinking of this as a space that you could scout with an interceptor and try to get an idea of whether there was something you were interested inside. Then you find that officer spawn or hacking site or whatever, drop your warp beacon, warp back to your warp beacon at the entrance (if you put one there), and come back with your other ship to do whatever content there is inside. Of course, in that time, others could find your warp beacon and set a trap. Or you proceed more methodically, living out of your chosen ship, refitting off your space yurt, and eventually trying to find your way back home. There would be nothing on which to anchor a POS or otherwise make a permanent home.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Grayland Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2014-01-12 11:27:23 UTC
+1 to this. I can imagine vast areas that would take days to explore so you would need to use any resources that you take with you sparingly - such as conserving ammo / drones. You would have to fit a ship properly for exploration rather than fitting a ship to do one job, refitting then doing something else.

A few ideas I have about this:

How about allowing mobile depots to be anchored in them in certain areas, so you can setup a home base from which you can explore- but they decay more quickly if left unattended.

Also I like the idea of being able to drop 'beacons' which you can use like a breadcrumb trail to lead you back out / or to something you found the day before. When you drop a beacon you can either drop it for You / Corp / Everyone, they decay after 14 days. They are not warpable to but you can see them on the overview and align to them to move towards them. However you can only see a beacon up to 250km, so you would have to drop multiple ones if you are doing a long trip.

When in this unscannable location you can only see items on your overview that are within your targeting range - except beacons as described above. This would allows a group of people to employ proper scout ships that are optimized for targeting range.

Ships / Items other things outside your targeting range by up to 50% occasionally flash on your overview for a few seconds as a weak signal - you get no information about it - just say something like 'Unknown'. This would be sig radius based, so bigger ships would show up more frequently, smaller ships would be harder to see.

- You could shadow someone by following them outside their targeting range :)

- when in the unscannable area you can't see the local channel, and you can't see anything on the overview that's outside this area, such as stations or stargates.
Drakast
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2014-01-12 19:14:24 UTC
+1 for anything that puts the random back into hunting.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#127 - 2014-01-12 23:40:57 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given that CCP has now demonstrated that they have the coding capability to create zones of non-scanability, how about creating stuff like static nebula's and gas clouds that negate the ability to scan in OR out. Where there is a perpetual warp disruption field in place.

Large areas, thousands of km across, where fleets can hide, or even get lost in.
Put items/sites of value in in them though, where people REALLY have to explore, where you operate by your wits, overview and luck.

Some place that while it is easy to hide in, be it someone with evil or benign intentions, but also makes it very difficult to hunt someone down in the cloud.

I always imagined some kind of area like we saw in the Wrath of Khan, would be a very interesting to spend a few hours, or longer, in.

Edit: Expanded thoughts:

I don't really want to dive into specifics with this initial post, that is covered on page 3 of this thread.
I want to discuss general theme.

In my opinion, a whole lot of older players are looking for the "next horizon" within Eve.
They have done pretty much all that Eve has to offer, at least on a superficial level.
They are waiting for something new, hence the excitement about CCP opening up new territory with player jump gates.

But what if they can have that new experience within the confines of existing star systems?
What if they could experience a different type of Eve, where the game is played a little differently, where things are more claustrophobic, where things are a little more random, the risks higher, and the rewards also higher, where tried and true methods of PvE and PvP operation have to be altered, or thrown out the window?

On a different tack, Eve players are notorious for being way too smart for their own good. We quickly industrialize every PvE concept, or even PvP mechanism that CCP hands us. Does not matter if it is high sec incursions, or wormhole C6 combat sites, or FW plexes, or null sec sov moon goo.
The players will take a mechanism and will test and optimize the risk/return ratio.

But what if they faced a section of space where the rules are changed? Where things are so random, or so varied in possibilities that no group could optimize for any particular circumstance. Where industrialization of sites was impossible, where bad people could be anywhere? Where exploration and finding riches or prey was significantly more difficult than today, and the rewards matched?

This is the type of zone that I would like to see CCP create, and by removing some of the existing game mechanics as described later, where you are partially blinded, you don't know what you are facing. PvE sites and PvP situations can be so much closer together, since you can't see them, until you are virtually on top of them. Whole new meta's on how to play will be created.

The happiest time I had in Eve was when Apochrypha came out. My old crew, within Eve UNI, has our 1st POS up in wh space 5 hours after Apochrypha was released. We stayed for over a year, constantly upgrading our home, from a C3 to a C4 to a C5 with a C6 static. The sense of the unknown, the learning of new game mechanics, the heightened risk of no local, all made for a great experience.

I think something like what I am proposing could bring back that wonder and excitement level, and it would be oh so easy for all to access, as these zones could spawn anywhere. And if done properly, and if CCP jams enough variation of sites and potential combat situations into a zone, then it would be very difficult to optimize for anything. I am not talking about quantity of sites being in a zone. I am talking about variation of POTENTIAL sites. If one does not know what they will find any given day, the game becomes very interesting.


I was expecting something else, but I really like this idea.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#128 - 2014-01-13 14:00:01 UTC
Bumping as this shouldn't leave page 1
King KLoWn
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#129 - 2014-01-13 15:09:21 UTC
+1

I think given all the Ideas I have seen I should add No Cynos or Bridges in this field also (Standard or Covert). The idea of getting lost and no way out has to have Negatives and Positives. Basically This anomaly has to jam Cynos and bridges so there is no get out of jail free card, or get in here easily fleet.

I love the Idea of if you get into the Anom you fade from local.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-01-13 15:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
There should definitely be no warping in or out of the anomaly by any means, still not sure whether warp to fleet member internal to the anomaly should be allowed, but if larger ships cannot enter due to mass restrictions this wouldn't be such an issue as smaller ships will be faster under sub-warp power.

It should be like being in a dense spatial fog...no reference points, dulled senses...vague impressions of others nearby...then bingo! Found something...instant panic trying to crack the can/mine the roid/kill the rats/salvage the Terran wreck before anyone else happens by...

edit: Thinking about it I like the idea that you cannot warp at all but can broadcast the location of a find to fleet mates so that they can fly to you. Would promote organized search patterns followed by mad rushes to get to finds before others arrive...all the while watching the overview for any flickering unknown responses showing you may be being shadowed/hunted by a cloaky ship nearby...
Grayland Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2014-01-13 15:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Grayland Aubaris
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
...all the while watching the overview for any flickering unknown responses showing you may be being shadowed/hunted by a cloaky ship nearby...


Also D-Scan should only work out to your targeting range as well.

Edit: Or just not work at all "Interference from the local area is preventing your scanner from working"
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-01-13 16:02:36 UTC
I prefer none...visual and overview information only, will really give a sense of foreboding to anyone flying through...
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#133 - 2014-01-13 16:09:19 UTC
Grayland Aubaris wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
...all the while watching the overview for any flickering unknown responses showing you may be being shadowed/hunted by a cloaky ship nearby...


Also D-Scan should only work out to your targeting range as well.

Edit: Or just not work at all "Interference from the local area is preventing your scanner from working"


Actually, what I envisioned originally was even dscan can't work.
And further, I would hope for a compressed grid. If a current grid edge is 200 km from an object, and I think in some cases it is more like 400 km, I would like to see if CCP could cut in half the diameter of the grid.

You are operating with your overview, primarily, and I think with the cut down grid size, exploration has to become a team sport, with a lot of co-ordination and out of game brain work.

The logic is something like this:

The reason of the smaller grid size is not to make it too easy for an interceptor to race through a no-scan zone, mapping the whole thing.
Imagine the zone is a block of cheese, and the inty a mouse, burrowing through the cheese.
If the diameter of the hole is 400 km in diamater (200 km all sides from the inty), that pilot can cover a lot of territory. Put together 5 inties, flying just on the edge of the grid from each other (200 km), now they are viewing a "slice" roughly 1200 km across, and 400 km deep. At 5 km/ sec, they can chew through a non-scan zone fast.

Now, if the edge of the grid was 100 km from an object, they are looking at a "slice" about 600 km x 200 km, or about 4 times smaller.

I think that smaller size works better, plus allows for more interesting tactics whjen dropping "breadcrumbs", or beacons, or whatever works.

I don't know if CCP can alter the standard grid size for something like this while maintaining the existing grid size that we have in normal space. I created a thread in GD asking that question, but it got quickly buried.
Dredkeeper
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2014-01-13 16:19:47 UTC
Sounds great, not sure if someone has added this
but maybe different Nebs/location have different effects that counter/lower/ dps of certain weapon types, as in Lasers dont function in a certain cloud otherwise it would ignite the entire cloud and kill everything in it.

Or maybe one that slowly damages drones and or hull/shield unless a certain resistance is met.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-01-13 16:41:17 UTC
Dust would certainly ruin laser efficiency, larger objects that are no threat to shielded hulls could certainly deflect and scatter solid shot and missiles...not a bad idea.

Initially I'd stick with the simple stuff that already exists in game (or could be re-used with minimal tweaks) to get the idea up and running first. Then if it works other effects could be worked in too...maybe sites should become more environmentally lethal the longer they have been in system...just to intensify the race to plunder it...
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#136 - 2014-01-13 18:13:53 UTC
GORRAMIT DINSDALE!!!!


Why oh why did it have to be you to come up with the perfect most sublime new feature for EvE?

This literally is the best feature to merge PvE and PvP together.

+1 for this

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#137 - 2014-01-13 23:37:51 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
GORRAMIT DINSDALE!!!!


Why oh why did it have to be you to come up with the perfect most sublime new feature for EvE?

This literally is the best feature to merge PvE and PvP together.

+1 for this


Though I may champion high sec these days, and PvE, I don't think people realize that I spent over a year in wormholes, only coming out for resupply and to sell stuff we extracted/made inside, plus I spent quite some time fighting PL and the DRF in Pure Blind, and other null areas. I also have spent most of my online time the last couple days in low sec exploring.

So I am not completely out of tune with the non high sec game.

Anyway, I communicated with one of the CSM, and was told that this concept will be brought to CCP's attention, but no one should hold out any hope for any grand announcement on something like this anytime soon, or ever.
But the CSM member also told me that the more people who comment in this thread, the better.

So tell your friends to comment whether good or bad.
I don't care about any +1's or accolades, but I would like CCP to see that there is indeed a groundswell behind the concept.
DSpite Culhach
#138 - 2014-01-14 02:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: DSpite Culhach
I had actually suggested something very similar myself regarding empty space in general, as there seem to be very little happening out in the void.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3955116#post3955116

The only thing I have problems with is setting things up so that going into such places would be worth the risk-reward, and not just create another farm-able space instance for well organized groups.

Imagine a group that could setup an ambush in a energy cloud that interferes with shield systems but not armour systems, or a region of high energy space that messes navigation for smaller ships/drones but not larger things like Battleship and above with more powerful and shielded hardware.

The possibilities are endless, the trick is finding reasons for those regions to exist, and be somewhere people would want to go, and even just setting up a home would be a valid starting reason these days, the problem is that players are VERY clever with numbers and balancing would be a real headache, but yea, these are neat ideas.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Dredkeeper
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2014-01-14 05:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dredkeeper
Could we also get this content BEFORE 2015... I can't guarantee I can stick around long enough for you guys to develop content to counter Star Citizen..............
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#140 - 2014-01-14 07:42:08 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
GORRAMIT DINSDALE!!!!


Why oh why did it have to be you to come up with the perfect most sublime new feature for EvE?

This literally is the best feature to merge PvE and PvP together.

+1 for this


Though I may champion high sec these days, and PvE, I don't think people realize that I spent over a year in wormholes, only coming out for resupply and to sell stuff we extracted/made inside, plus I spent quite some time fighting PL and the DRF in Pure Blind, and other null areas. I also have spent most of my online time the last couple days in low sec exploring.

So I am not completely out of tune with the non high sec game.

Anyway, I communicated with one of the CSM, and was told that this concept will be brought to CCP's attention, but no one should hold out any hope for any grand announcement on something like this anytime soon, or ever.
But the CSM member also told me that the more people who comment in this thread, the better.

So tell your friends to comment whether good or bad.
I don't care about any +1's or accolades, but I would like CCP to see that there is indeed a groundswell behind the concept.


A good idea is a good idea is a good idea. The thing I like about this one is that you risk what you are comfortable with and all dangers are unpredictable.

The word shall be spread!

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.