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On Massive HiSec Freighter Ganking
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Lailani ASBB
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-01-13 02:18:42 UTC
Hello,
no intro. CCP- please look at some of these links.
1st - the two most important cases:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21329492
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21257197
these Freighters were obviously Bot-killed by 20-23 multibox Catalysts.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21369802
Freighter killed in 0.6 System with 6 Talos.
Cargo: 2,2 Bil ISK
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21359579
Freighter killed in 0.5 System by 30 Catalysts.
Cargo: 2,2 Bil ISK
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21358239
Freighter killed in 0.5 System by 26 Catalysts.
Cargo: 1,2 Bil ISK
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21359583
Freighter killed in 0.5 System by 25 Catalysts and 2 Vexors.
Cargo: 2,2 Bil ISK
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21358000
Freighter killed in 0.5 System by 13 Catalysts.
Cargo: 330 Mil ISK
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21354721
how do you kill a NPC Corp Freighter in 0.8 System with 5 frigs
- i don't know - but i'm sure somebody does.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21343587
Freighter killed in 0.6 System by 6 Talos.
Cargo: 3,1 Bil ISK
these were only a few kills i picked out from the bunch that occured in few past days.

My point?
Well, this has become totaly ridiculous! people started ganking freighters for 3 Bil of cargo, or less.
Before some smart guy starts speech about how one should not put 3 Bil in a freighter in hisec, let me ask you how much should one put in?
And while we are at it, why do we build or buy a freighter in the first place if not to carry at least that ammount of stuff?
Major trade routes are made so you cannot travel through them without passing through 0.6 and 0.5 systems - there's no way avoiding them.
I have no idea about the numbers, but, CCP, if you are loosing older population, this is one of the important answers to question why -
nobody likes fail mechanics except for those exploiting them.
No one is gonna split freighter haul into 13 smaller parts and waste several days to haul it all in a bulkhead tanked 77 K m3 cargo capacity orca for 40 jumps or so -
that would be 520 jumps in a ship that takes about 37 seconds to align, and the right moment to ask myself: Is this a game, or a loony bin?

- 2 to 10 freighters go suicidegank boom every day in 0.5 - 0.7 systems.
- there are quite a few organized groups doing this, but i took out one toon from the most active group, just to check the kb statistics.
60+ to 200+ Billion in freighter cargo looted or destroyed every month - that is just from one team that typically uses 6-8 Talos.

See how cheap investment is needed in order to gain several lifetimes of EVE game time?
... talk about game balance, eh?

All in all, i stopped flying my freighter, as i know for sure i'd just quit playing for good if something like this happens to me.
If that is the answer, let's just remove freighter ship class from the game and replace it with something else.
oh and while we are at it - make that new ship fun to fly to!

I'm a miner/ratter/mission runner. weither i haul cargo from nosec, move my stuff from nosec, or i do missions in hisec,
freighter is the only non-brain-destructive option to move huge amounts of cargo for 30+jumps.
Making it high risk to use that ship type... well, it makes no sense creating stuff if i can not move it to sell it.
The only other option is to have all hisec players play the game arround Jita only - that way they would not need freighters at all...
Well, that's it from me.
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-01-13 02:55:19 UTC
Lailani ASBB wrote:
Before some smart guy starts speech about how one should not put 3 Bil in a freighter in hisec, let me ask you how much should one put in?
And while we are at it, why do we build or buy a freighter in the first place if not to carry at least that ammount of stuff?


Didn't read most of it but this stood out. Freighters are best used for moving cheap bulky items such as large amounts of common minerals. You should ideally put less than a billlion in one. 3 billion is a bad idea because it cost less than that to gank it. If you put too much in, they can suicide and make profit.

Expensive stuff should go in a blockade runner Blink
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#3 - 2014-01-13 03:00:31 UTC
Good work to the fleets involved in euthanizing those freighters. And OP, thank you for doing valuable research into how profitable freighter ganking can be - it's a career more EVE players should consider.

Pro tip: If you are flying a freighter without undertaking basic due dilligence, you too will wind up on a lossmail like those. Basic due dilligence includes having a scout looking for obvious traps (30 flashy red people in Uedama should worry you), or a friend in a logistics ship, or a friend in an ECM boat, or an trusted in-corp ally providing instawebwarp support, or a friend that can bump you into alignment.



I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Lailani ASBB
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-01-13 03:20:30 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Lailani ASBB wrote:
Before some smart guy starts speech about how one should not put 3 Bil in a freighter in hisec, let me ask you how much should one put in?
And while we are at it, why do we build or buy a freighter in the first place if not to carry at least that ammount of stuff?


Didn't read most of it but this stood out. Freighters are best used for moving cheap bulky items such as large amounts of common minerals. You should ideally put less than a billlion in one. 3 billion is a bad idea because it cost less than that to gank it. If you put too much in, they can suicide and make profit.

Expensive stuff should go in a blockade runner Blink


In one of the above cases the kill was done with 13 destroyers.
13 fitted Catalysts is .. not sure, but probs about 130 Mil ISK.
TBH, i don't need a freighter at all if i'm gonna haul 130 Mil ISK or less.

if you fill up your freighter with nothing but tritanium, the worth of cargo is more than 500 mil (if i remember correctly)
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2014-01-13 03:42:23 UTC
obvious sock puppet is obvious. Why make another stupid post when your first one didnt get what you want?

The limit for frieghters is 1b of cargo. Its well known that anything more than that is profitable to gank. Thats why the reputable shipping companies set a contract colateral limit of 1b.
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-01-13 03:48:52 UTC
Lailani ASBB wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Lailani ASBB wrote:
Before some smart guy starts speech about how one should not put 3 Bil in a freighter in hisec, let me ask you how much should one put in?
And while we are at it, why do we build or buy a freighter in the first place if not to carry at least that ammount of stuff?


Didn't read most of it but this stood out. Freighters are best used for moving cheap bulky items such as large amounts of common minerals. You should ideally put less than a billlion in one. 3 billion is a bad idea because it cost less than that to gank it. If you put too much in, they can suicide and make profit.

Expensive stuff should go in a blockade runner Blink


In one of the above cases the kill was done with 13 destroyers.
13 fitted Catalysts is .. not sure, but probs about 130 Mil ISK.
TBH, i don't need a freighter at all if i'm gonna haul 130 Mil ISK or less.

if you fill up your freighter with nothing but tritanium, the worth of cargo is more than 500 mil (if i remember correctly)


Okay I looked some more. The guy with 5 frigs killing his freighter seems to be losing them for the lulz. Check his other freighter losses, which included one to marmites (who would not suicide gank with those ships).

And I can only guess that the 13 catalysts were due to the pilot being away from a gate. He has lots of PI stuff in his hold, and sentries wouldn't be an issue if ganking at a POCO.

But maybe you know better.
Eranicus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-01-13 04:46:30 UTC
Most kms are good, the multi boxing one (at least it seems that way) I don't know if CCP would like that use for multibox.

But then again it could be a gang of corpies who decided to make same name alts for ganks and they are all individual players.

Good kms though.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-01-13 05:19:56 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:


Expensive stuff should go in a blockade runner Blink

This.

Also, the idea with ..really anything is to not make yourself a target by using/carrying expensive fittings/cargo. Blockade Runner is the best for hauling expensive cargo.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#9 - 2014-01-13 05:35:29 UTC
Capt Starfox wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:


Expensive stuff should go in a blockade runner Blink

This.

Also, the idea with ..really anything is to not make yourself a target by using/carrying expensive fittings/cargo. Blockade Runner is the best for hauling expensive cargo.



Or Interceptors.

I'd be pretty confident flying an Interceptor with three billion of BPOs in it, and three billion would be a huge loss to me.

I'd avoid Rancer (other than the Crilerie gate), Egghelende and a couple other places, and if flying in unfamiliar lowsec or nullsec systems I'd fly a scout through first, but other than that I'd have no hesitation moving those billions in an Interceptor if the price was right.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2014-01-13 08:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Silence iKillYouu
I don't mind ganking freighters. But i think Freighters should have some fitting slots.
That would make sense and be a easy fix...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=312291&find=unread

players can fit tanks/cargo capacity/agility whatever they want
maybe covert cloak on the T2 Jump Freighters. but that might not be a good idea

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.
Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#11 - 2014-01-13 10:09:45 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
obvious sock puppet is obvious. Why make another stupid post when your first one didnt get what you want?

The limit for frieghters is 1b of cargo. Its well known that anything more than that is profitable to gank. Thats why the reputable shipping companies set a contract colateral limit of 1b.


Actually, all shipping companies, at least Frog and Push, have their collateral limit up to 5bil. Check your sources.

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-01-13 10:52:38 UTC
Lailani ASBB wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Lailani ASBB wrote:
Before some smart guy starts speech about how one should not put 3 Bil in a freighter in hisec, let me ask you how much should one put in?
And while we are at it, why do we build or buy a freighter in the first place if not to carry at least that ammount of stuff?


Didn't read most of it but this stood out. Freighters are best used for moving cheap bulky items such as large amounts of common minerals. You should ideally put less than a billlion in one. 3 billion is a bad idea because it cost less than that to gank it. If you put too much in, they can suicide and make profit.

Expensive stuff should go in a blockade runner Blink


In one of the above cases the kill was done with 13 destroyers.
13 fitted Catalysts is .. not sure, but probs about 130 Mil ISK.
TBH, i don't need a freighter at all if i'm gonna haul 130 Mil ISK or less.

if you fill up your freighter with nothing but tritanium, the worth of cargo is more than 500 mil (if i remember correctly)



But that gank was more likley because they were bored. OTherwise they woudl not ahve wwasted their time and ships for only that 330 M loot.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-01-13 11:56:40 UTC
Sylphy wrote:
Froggy Storm wrote:
obvious sock puppet is obvious. Why make another stupid post when your first one didnt get what you want?

The limit for frieghters is 1b of cargo. Its well known that anything more than that is profitable to gank. Thats why the reputable shipping companies set a contract colateral limit of 1b.


Actually, all shipping companies, at least Frog and Push, have their collateral limit up to 5bil. Check your sources.



Red frog FAQ
http://red-frog.org/faq.php
max 1 bill collateral /trip

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-01-13 12:34:17 UTC
Bleah, isboxer ganks :(
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#15 - 2014-01-13 13:22:36 UTC
Lailani ASBB wrote:
Bot-killed by 20-23 multibox Catalysts.
Multiboxing != botting.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-01-13 14:11:45 UTC
Why did none of those freighter pilots hire an escort when passing known gank systems? Why should high-sec be made even more safe?
Manny Moons
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-01-13 14:30:22 UTC
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
... But i think Freighters should have some fitting slots...

If they did, we'd probably see a lot of killmails for freighters fitted with expanded cargoholds.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#18 - 2014-01-13 14:45:17 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
The limit for frieghters is 1b of cargo. Its well known that anything more than that is profitable to gank. Thats why the reputable shipping companies set a contract colateral limit of 1b.


This. And the fact that this is true is indicates that freighters are pretty terrible at what they're supposed to do.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Jack Lennox
Grove Street Families
#19 - 2014-01-13 15:08:04 UTC
Oh this is adorable, please point to the spot on the Orca where the New Order/BU/evil goonies touched you.

HighSec is meant to be safe, but not that safe. This is not WoW or any other theme park MMO. Eve is a pvp based game first and foremost, and if someone wants to kill you, they totally can.

Been ganked? Robbed? Space feelings hurt?  Now there's something you can do! Fill out a Customer Service Comment Card!  EIther that or contact everyone's favorite Space Detective for an instant ban!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#20 - 2014-01-13 16:05:33 UTC
Jack Lennox wrote:

HighSec is meant to be safe, but not that safe. This is not WoW or any other theme park MMO. Eve is a pvp based game first and foremost, and if someone wants to kill you, they totally can.


Emphasis mine. You're implying here that this is an issue of people carrying out a vendetta against particular target, which it is not. Its a case of freighters being extremely cost efficient to gank.

Back when I did some hisec industry stuff a few years ago, I trained one of my mains to fly freighters. I ended up not buying one at all, as I found little reason to use one if I couldn't carry more than 1 or 1.5bn in cargo when going to or from a trade hub, which would leave me with a very slow and mostly empty freighter (leaving me still with multiple trips to make). It hasn't gotten any better for freighters since then.

The fact that double wrapping an unscannable courier package is still around is IMO a good indication that the current situation is broken.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
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