EVE General Discussion

Nice to see that some one from null-sec has a sense of humour.

The sense of entitlement EGO is strong in this one. ^^^

So besides the nightmare of having to freighter certain materials in (especially if you don't have a Titan on retainer), are you completely ignoring the fact that raising capital is far easier in Nullsec? One of the main hurdles to any industrial player is the seed money, to buy blueprints, ships needed for resource collecting, that egg you're going to try and drop without losing, etc... All of this is easier in null than highsec. In null, of course depending upon system standing, ISK literally falls out of space if you are half competent and part of a half competent alliance with an intel channel. And if you are part of a half competent alliance, much of the work was already done for you.

Except everyone who has been suggesting that Tippea. 340 slots is also more than the high sec average per system by quite a bit. And when you consider how much larger null sec is than high sec it's quite competitive now in terms of outright potential, assuming average outpost distribution, which simply wouldn't be true, Null would be able to outproduce high by about a factor of five overall. I acknowledge the mineral bottleneck now with the 30% refine, but I've also proposed the solution to that already as well. And BPO/BPC's can be run around very fast in inti's and cov ops, so that's no real bottleneck.

The only thing 'stopping' you now if anything is the 30% refine. Which is quite common in high sec. Even your example system will have a number of 30% refines, so Industrialists have to move minerals from the 50% refine to the station they have empty queues in. Rather than all packing into just the 50% stations. So if you want to assume no movement, you have to eliminate every manufacturing line which doesn't also have an ME line, and a 50% refine in the same station. Which you will find eliminates nearly all of high sec's stations under the same criteria you are trying to use.

I guess my experience must be the result of my own kernite dust induced fantasies. That is good to know since knowing is the first step toward acceptance which of course can lead to getting help. Oh' and you're correct, "literally," was incorrect, again a mistake I blame on the kernite dust.

There are a whole lot of inter-dependencies that a lot of people don't always realise. And a whole lot of less-than-ideal game mechanics.

Things like:
Nullsec, one of the resources there are high-meta modules, things like A-type modules, officer modules.
A lot of those are useful on capital and supercapital ships, but for others, the only market for them is for bling-boats.
highsec lvl4 mission bling boats, and highsec incursion bling boats, in particular.
A substantial nerf to highsec - such as the often proposed "move all lvl4s to lowsec", or "remove highsec incursions entirely", means a nerf to the value of those officer modules, which would have a big impact on the enjoyment of several nullsec dwellers, living and earning in nullsec. "Yay, a-type loot!" becomes "Meh".

Anyway, for manufacturing in nullsec:

The whole invention system, is reliant on pointless make-work. Collect datacores from agents, use them with copied blueprints, for a chance at a t2 blueprint. It's reliant on waiting for proverbial fruit to grow, and on expending effort setting up a blueprint copying system - POS and the like, and all the tediousness that POS involves. All for a roll of the dice that says "sorry, you lose this time".

Manufacturing things requires large amounts of tritanium, one of the most common minerals, (and until fairly recently, the cheapest). Mining for tritanium is basically, the lowest job there is in EVE. It's rock bottom. But manufacturing requires it to be done. Thing is, people don't really want to go to nullsec and do that job. They want to go to nullsec and make ~mad isk~ mining for morphite, and megacyte, and so on. Mining for tritanium has no glamour. Going to nullsec to mine tritanium doesn't have the fun factor.

The distribution of moon minerals, ice types, rat salvage, also affects things. Guristas rats only drop guristas salvage - if you want any other salvage, it has to be imported. Ice isotopes also have to be imported, because the different POS have different fuel requirements, and different jump ships use different isotopes.


So, an industrialist, wanting to live and manufacture in nullsec, has to import datacores, ice products, moon minerals and salvage materials, because those are not available in their home region. Most of those materials are also larger in volume than the products that are made from them, requiring more effort to import the materials than importing the finished product.
Ships fly in both directions, it's simpler to just import finished products.

So, why live in nullsec, with all the problems of availability of materials, and the inconvenience of the station being attacked, when it is so much simpler to just live in highsec ?

Nerfing highsec in itself will do nothing to address the problems of material availability and importing.


What CCP has to do, is to decide what nullsec is supposed to be for, and what highsec is supposed to be for, and then to think about what game mechanics are necessary to support this.

This is only true if you are counting person per person, due to difference in numbers.

Frankly, perhaps part of the problem is high sec industry but it goes beyond that, to make highsec the sole culprit is misleading.
Considering the attractiveness in having one's own infrastructures, nullsec industry should have dwarfed the empires' ones years ago, yet it does not.

I very much suspect that nullsec players are simple not numerous enough for that to happen, and I still don't think it has to do with highsec attractiveness but rather with nullsec lack of it, even if compared to highsec.
Let's get frank, compared to the amount of entertainment that other parts of the game offer nullsec is backward at this level, in nullsec you can pvp and nothing much else, it accounts for something.

As far as I'm concerned CCP can nerf highsec as much as they want, if I do not find fun in it anymore then I will simply move to another part of the game or to another game altogether, but I really do not think it will make nullsec more attractive in absolute, and that's in itself a problem that need to be adressed, and it's not even an economical potential problem.

What do you mean by "attractiveness?" The one factor of nullsec industry that is being over focused upon in this thread is the lack of infratructure support and or allowance in the game design. A nullsec system cannot be built up to the level of a highsec system of "equal" value at this time. It's impossible.

Did you mean "literally" attractive? Some of the outposts are quite pretty.

I think I quoted the wrong person here.

Stepping back into the general theme of this thread, I think people are forgetting that CCP is fundamentally a business. If a significant proportion of the company's cash flow is generated by players who are active in Empire then they will not tip that cart. Less cash flow will mean cutting back on resources, staff and projects. It would materially affect CCP and the playerbase by doing so.


Granted. But is it really that significant?

A player can be logged in with multiple characters in multiple places around New Eden. If Empire is the most economically active region of New Eden, those regions will naturally attract a higher proportion of characters operated by players to those regions. Miners and haulers will attract pirates, missioners will attract traders and gankers, etc. There is an entire food chain in Empire supporting these microeconomies that require goods and services.

Very much so. Only the first small baby steps have been taken (relaxing the restrictions on office slots, adding some more build slots, making outpost upgrades slightly less worthless). The core issues remain. It will take a long time, and CCP are deliberately moving slowly on this.