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Have Goons become the very thing they hated?? (i.e. BoB)

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Dave Stark
#281 - 2014-01-10 21:30:23 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


so it's just an outlier that you're quoting?

Wouldn't call ~2 months of war an outlier when discussing wars between the 2 major powerblocs.


do you think 60 days of war, out of a game with 10 years of history, is a suitable frame to estimate the death rate of capital ships?

Tbh I don't think the ten years of history are terribly relevant. First off, capitals haven't even existed for all of those years. When they were introduced, in the first few years the amount of caps in the game was tiny. Hell even through 2007-2009 caps weren't THAT common.

IMO (and I could be wrong about this) it wasn't until the DRF wars that caps saw truly massive use. So at best, we're talking about 4 years or so of really *relevant* history. And well....60 days out of 4 years isn't really negligible, especially given that the conflict is ongoing.


2007 so that's still a solid 7 years. that's a substantial time period. taking a small window of 60 days in order to determine the rate of capital ship deaths is almost like me taking a cup of water from the ocean in order to estimate the population of whales in the ocean. especially since the last 60 days have basically seen one half of null sec bang it's head against the other half of null sec, it's hardly a "typical" 60 days.

also, surely if the rate of production were lesser or equal to the rate of deaths, then capitals still wouldn't be *that* common?

ok so let's only take the last 4 years. 60 days out of 1460 days, so 4.1% of the days is an adequate representation? especially when all 60 days are during a time period where, arguably, capitals have seen more use than ever before? (i only pose that question because i've never been aware of capitals being used quite this much before, especially when we're seeing full fleets of them being fielded.)

anyway, like i said the point is largely irrelevant since we haven't got a rate of ship production to compare it against.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2014-01-10 21:30:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


No, they're Super Capitals, and the original posts were you and that guy talking about building caps in lowsec, sorry Baltec but you're a goal post moving idiot who can't keep up with his own chain of posts, or even know what your overall side is saying is going on, much less understand enough about game mechanics to have an informed opinion on anything you're that you weren't directly handed from a superior.


Now answer the rest without the personal attacks.

Whats to answer Baltec, you haven't had a single coherent series of posts in this entire thread, you are literally parroting what you're told to say, what your side has collectively culled itself into believing. You had a mount of tech, you were making money hand over fist for years, you built supers with it, I know, we have some in just about every CFC alliance to keep an eye on them, so saying you're behind is yet another bold faced lie, so theres not much to answer.

You're going to sit here and tell as many lies as you can to whoever will listen, and anybody that comes along and shows them the truth will be met with your ever shifting version of "what you meant".

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#283 - 2014-01-10 21:31:03 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So your're not denying your coalition (all those people are in your coalition now, you're all working towards a common goal, that is the basic definition of what a coalition does) has 900 caps in the south, so then deploying Slowcats/Boots shouldn't be any problem for you at all then right? I mean you should just be able to hang those things out wherever you want without any problem at all.

Also you should talk to James and Baltec, evidently they think you're a liar.


so you're telling us that the numbers from a move op that was announced days in advance with every single party arrayed against your coalition calling CTAs represent the numbers we can pull at the drop of a hat?

i'd like whatever you're smoking


Why does it have to be at the drop of a hat? You can't post more ops and get all that together again and then hang 300 slowcats out in an unjammed system or was this move op a once a decade thing like some kind of odd whale migration?

Regardless of how you get it, its there for you to get, so saying you can't do something because somebody else has more caps is a blatant outright lie, you have them, how you get them to do what you need is not my problem. The fact that you're not using Boot carriers down here for planned ops tells the entire tale of what kind of bullshit spin you're putting out, if you did really believe they were invincible and that you had 900 caps at your sides disposal you'd be cramming them down progod and Vince's throat every chance you got.


Timezones don't exist in your world, I'm guessing

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#284 - 2014-01-10 21:31:38 UTC
Ka'Narlist wrote:

So the actual problem is that they are more (cap pilots) then you? Well this never was a problem for the CFC when its the other way around, and certainly no huge game inbalance Blink


The problem is that carriers are immune to subcaps now. The only counter is more capitals which in turn will be countered by supers/titans at which point its a case of he who has more wins.

This means everyone not in N3 or CFC, which is around 420,000 accounts, are now unable to do a thing to either of us.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2014-01-10 21:32:27 UTC
Andski wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So your're not denying your coalition (all those people are in your coalition now, you're all working towards a common goal, that is the basic definition of what a coalition does) has 900 caps in the south, so then deploying Slowcats/Boots shouldn't be any problem for you at all then right? I mean you should just be able to hang those things out wherever you want without any problem at all.

Also you should talk to James and Baltec, evidently they think you're a liar.


so you're telling us that the numbers from a move op that was announced days in advance with every single party arrayed against your coalition calling CTAs represent the numbers we can pull at the drop of a hat?

i'd like whatever you're smoking


Why does it have to be at the drop of a hat? You can't post more ops and get all that together again and then hang 300 slowcats out in an unjammed system or was this move op a once a decade thing like some kind of odd whale migration?

Regardless of how you get it, its there for you to get, so saying you can't do something because somebody else has more caps is a blatant outright lie, you have them, how you get them to do what you need is not my problem. The fact that you're not using Boot carriers down here for planned ops tells the entire tale of what kind of bullshit spin you're putting out, if you did really believe they were invincible and that you had 900 caps at your sides disposal you'd be cramming them down progod and Vince's throat every chance you got.


Timezones don't exist in your world, I'm guessing


Wait, so the only time all those caps can show up is for that 30 minute window on that move op day? Ok post another op for that time and do it in this magical 900 cap window you had on that one day.

Or is that day like leap year and we have to wait 4 more years for it to show up?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#286 - 2014-01-10 21:33:35 UTC
Grath's solution is to have the Russians alarmclock for 6am Moscow every day, apparently!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#287 - 2014-01-10 21:34:18 UTC
So just keeping track, the CFC would like the following things nerfed:

Sentry Drones
Drone Assist
Capitals (particularly the evil archon that can pull drones while afk)
Super Capitals
Titans

Alright CCP, you've got you're work cut out for you, chop chop.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#288 - 2014-01-10 21:34:29 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Whats to answer Baltec, you haven't had a single coherent series of posts in this entire thread, you are literally parroting what you're told to say, what your side has collectively culled itself into believing. You had a mount of tech, you were making money hand over fist for years, you built supers with it, I know, we have some in just about every CFC alliance to keep an eye on them, so saying you're behind is yet another bold faced lie, so theres not much to answer.

You're going to sit here and tell as many lies as you can to whoever will listen, and anybody that comes along and shows them the truth will be met with your ever shifting version of "what you meant".



Well you could start by telling us all how a subcap fleet can beat the carrier fleets now being deployed. Tell the countless alliances how they can beat either of us when we hold all of the cards.

Tell them why this time CCP should not nerf capitals that cannot be killed by subacaps.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#289 - 2014-01-10 21:35:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ka'Narlist wrote:

So the actual problem is that they are more (cap pilots) then you? Well this never was a problem for the CFC when its the other way around, and certainly no huge game inbalance Blink


The problem is that carriers are immune to subcaps now. .



100 BL Maelstroms called, they said you're making this up, they were killing carriers last week, so evidently carriers might not be as immune as you think.

Oh, 1000 megas show up (please tell me that the CFC hasn't ever pulled 1k megas, please so i can make you look like an idiot again) and they too think that you're a liar as they were fairly able to kill carriers with ease.

Hers a thought, maybe if you stopped bringing the sub cap rapist domis and actually brought a sub cap ship that was able to kill a carrier you'd have a hope. If only the entire CFC had access to platform with 5 times the alpha of a domi....

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#290 - 2014-01-10 21:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
baltec1 wrote:

Well you could start by telling us all how a subcap fleet can beat the carrier fleets now being deployed. Tell the countless alliances how they can beat either of us when we hold all of the cards.

Tell them why this time CCP should not nerf capitals that cannot be killed by subacaps.

When's the last time another alliance took and held YOUR alliances' sov using only subcaps. Go on, I'll wait.

You aren't looking for balance, you just want to nerf the other guy so you can win your current war.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#291 - 2014-01-10 21:38:47 UTC
Andski wrote:
Grath's solution is to have the Russians alarmclock for 6am Moscow every day, apparently!


So now me asking for one form up timer on one day is me asking russians to alarm clock every day at 6am (that move op was at 16:00 btw, thats 8pm Moscow time)


baltec1 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Whats to answer Baltec, you haven't had a single coherent series of posts in this entire thread, you are literally parroting what you're told to say, what your side has collectively culled itself into believing. You had a mount of tech, you were making money hand over fist for years, you built supers with it, I know, we have some in just about every CFC alliance to keep an eye on them, so saying you're behind is yet another bold faced lie, so theres not much to answer.

You're going to sit here and tell as many lies as you can to whoever will listen, and anybody that comes along and shows them the truth will be met with your ever shifting version of "what you meant".



Well you could start by telling us all how a subcap fleet can beat the carrier fleets now being deployed. Tell the countless alliances how they can beat either of us when we hold all of the cards.

Tell them why this time CCP should not nerf capitals that cannot be killed by subacaps.



I'm not going to tell you anything, if they're really as invincible as you say, put 300 down and I'll kill them for you, I'm not going to explain to my enemy how to kill me, i'm going to show him.

Or I would if he actually believed all the lies he's telling to try and get his way.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Jeanne Hilanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#292 - 2014-01-10 21:39:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ka'Narlist wrote:

So the actual problem is that they are more (cap pilots) then you? Well this never was a problem for the CFC when its the other way around, and certainly no huge game inbalance Blink


The problem is that carriers are immune to subcaps now. The only counter is more capitals which in turn will be countered by supers/titans at which point its a case of he who has more wins.

This means everyone not in N3 or CFC, which is around 420,000 accounts, are now unable to do a thing to either of us.



Won't someone think of the pubbies.

--Goonswarm 2014
JitaPriceCheckingAlt
Doomheim
#293 - 2014-01-10 21:40:10 UTC
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#294 - 2014-01-10 21:41:44 UTC
For the Lazy, from CCP Greyscale:

Quote:

Dreadnaughts are primarily anti-structure tools, with anti-capital as a secondary role. The capital ships you're looking for to deal with battleships are carriers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2014-01-10 21:45:18 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ka'Narlist wrote:

So the actual problem is that they are more (cap pilots) then you? Well this never was a problem for the CFC when its the other way around, and certainly no huge game inbalance Blink


The problem is that carriers are immune to subcaps now. .



100 BL Maelstroms called, they said you're making this up, they were killing carriers last week, so evidently carriers might not be as immune as you think.

Oh, 1000 megas show up (please tell me that the CFC hasn't ever pulled 1k megas, please so i can make you look like an idiot again) and they too think that you're a liar as they were fairly able to kill carriers with ease.

Hers a thought, maybe if you stopped bringing the sub cap rapist domis and actually brought a sub cap ship that was able to kill a carrier you'd have a hope. If only the entire CFC had access to platform with 5 times the alpha of a domi....


We have never had 1k megas. The most we have ever had was around 900 when we has the largest battle in EVE history.

Those 100 maelstroms, they do not have the firepower to alpha a carrier so calling BS on this too.
Dave Stark
#296 - 2014-01-10 21:47:02 UTC
i think grath is about to point out that just because 100 maelstroms can't alpha a carrier doesn't mean carriers are immune to subcaps.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#297 - 2014-01-10 21:49:46 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Well you could start by telling us all how a subcap fleet can beat the carrier fleets now being deployed. Tell the countless alliances how they can beat either of us when we hold all of the cards.

Tell them why this time CCP should not nerf capitals that cannot be killed by subacaps.

When's the last time another alliance took and held YOUR alliances' sov using only subcaps. Go on, I'll wait.

You aren't looking for balance, you just want to nerf the other guy so you can win your current war.


BL and 401k in the fountain campaign. There is a reason we started to pay BL to not attack us.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#298 - 2014-01-10 21:51:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Well you could start by telling us all how a subcap fleet can beat the carrier fleets now being deployed. Tell the countless alliances how they can beat either of us when we hold all of the cards.

Tell them why this time CCP should not nerf capitals that cannot be killed by subacaps.

When's the last time another alliance took and held YOUR alliances' sov using only subcaps. Go on, I'll wait.

You aren't looking for balance, you just want to nerf the other guy so you can win your current war.


BL and 401k in the fountain campaign. There is a reason we started to pay BL to not attack us.

So they took sov and held it? Where, and for how long?

Also, as I recall, they had ~150 of your carriers **** caged. If carriers are so overpowered, pray tell how that happened?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#299 - 2014-01-10 21:55:06 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

So they took sov and held it? Where, and for how long?

Also, as I recall, they had ~150 of your carriers **** caged. If carriers are so overpowered, pray tell how that happened?


It wasn't 150 carriers, I doubt it was even 70, at the time it was thought of as a sizeable fleet. They only stopped when we paid them.
Malcolm from Marketing
Klaatu Technologies
#300 - 2014-01-10 21:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm from Marketing
baltec1 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Whats to answer Baltec, you haven't had a single coherent series of posts in this entire thread, you are literally parroting what you're told to say, what your side has collectively culled itself into believing. You had a mount of tech, you were making money hand over fist for years, you built supers with it, I know, we have some in just about every CFC alliance to keep an eye on them, so saying you're behind is yet another bold faced lie, so theres not much to answer.

You're going to sit here and tell as many lies as you can to whoever will listen, and anybody that comes along and shows them the truth will be met with your ever shifting version of "what you meant".



Well you could start by telling us all how a subcap fleet can beat the carrier fleets now being deployed. Tell the countless alliances how they can beat either of us when we hold all of the cards.

Tell them why this time CCP should not nerf capitals that cannot be killed by subacaps.


Are you dumb?

Not 6 months ago you guys totally destroyed our slowcat blobs with your mega blobs when you kicked us out of fountain/Delve.

The problem your trying to make out exists, in fact doesnt.
The issue with countering a carrier fleet is the willingness to escalate, You guys tend to be really cautious with your supers while PL/N3 are happy to throw them around willy nilly. If your not willing to escalate a capital fight, you shouldnt start a war with an alliance or two that has equal or greater super numbers than you.
Dont show a complete lack of balls in a fight and keep throwing T1 Battleships at the problem claiming it's broken.

Eve is and always has been about risk Vs reward, you guys show a complete lack of willingness to commit any sort of risk with your caps/supers and instead resort to dumb propaganda via your news site by even dumber authors who clearly know **** all about what they're talking about to cry nerf. ( hurr durr we lack balls to use caps so we'll cry foul and get them nerfed instead of taking a risk. )

CFC has a massive cap/super fleet, certainly as big as PL/N3 especially when you include the Russians, Your just unwilling to use them. That risk aversion is whats costing you fights. When only one side is willing to escalate a fight, that side WILL win which is exactly how it should be. Nothing is broken here, only your back bone.