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CCP - Falcons - Still massively overpowered!

Author
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#41 - 2011-11-23 20:52:00 UTC
Failcons are on the whole Ok'ish.

ECM is not.

Focus on the illness and ignore the symptoms.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2011-11-23 21:05:39 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Chance based mechanics that basically give a chance of 100% unless people in the opposing fleet have 2+ module slots taken up (PER SHIP) for a counter measure, or a specific implant set, while all other EWAR options are pointless when they do much less than ECM offers.

Moderately useless in large scale fleets but no more so than any other EWAR. In smaller scale it is not so much a force multiplier as a force nullifier. Smaller gang / solo versus an ECM fleet? Say goodbye to your ships and try again...

Cant see anything wrong with that myself.


Not really. My carrier frequently gets jammed out by EC-300's or a single falcon, even when i fit it its entire low slot and mid slots with nothing but ECCM. And yes i did this, i was undocking / repping people playing station games and even with all my low/mid slots full of ECCM i was still being jammed out perminantly by EC-300's alone. Not even a falcon

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#43 - 2011-11-23 21:27:58 UTC
Don't even get me started on ECM drones. I once had a fight where i was in a BS, against a cane. I had 5 heavies, and the cane had 5 lights (he also had no eccm). The fight lasted just over 4 minutes. We both managed to set drones on each other, guess who was jammed from start to finish, and guess who didn't get jammed AT ALL.

I'l give you a hint - i got jammed.

I didn't - or rather couldn't - fight back, so i just sat and watched for him to lose lock so i could escape. In 4 minutes, those drones must have cycled a ridiculous amount of times. The chances of the above happening on a random roll of the dice are astronomical.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-11-23 21:48:00 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
Why did these every bother getting nerfed when there are rigs that counter it?

All you need is a T2 Dispersion Projector Rig and you can perma jam - yes perma jam from 80Km at least! and thats with only 1 named ECM, not even a T2 one!

I mean the accuracy falloff is 49 km, so being 80+km away is near the top end of that, how the hell can you still be perma jamming?
The decrease in falloff range is obviously not working!
Seriously! If you are gonna nerf it then do it properly!! Its a joke a ship can just perma jam you anyway!! wtf!


The butthurt is strong with this one.
"If."
John Caesse
Just Post Inc.
#45 - 2011-11-23 21:49:00 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Not really. My carrier frequently gets jammed out by EC-300's or a single falcon, even when i fit it its entire low slot and mid slots with nothing but ECCM. And yes i did this, i was undocking / repping people playing station games and even with all my low/mid slots full of ECCM i was still being jammed out perminantly by EC-300's alone. Not even a falcon


Where do you keep this carrier? It sounds overdue for a hull breach.
Jita Alt666
#46 - 2011-11-23 21:51:15 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
At least falcons cost a fair amount. Blackbirds are the most overpowered subcap ship in the game.


The blackbird: the ultimate killboard padding ship for "newbies"
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2011-11-23 21:53:15 UTC
John Caesse wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Not really. My carrier frequently gets jammed out by EC-300's or a single falcon, even when i fit it its entire low slot and mid slots with nothing but ECCM. And yes i did this, i was undocking / repping people playing station games and even with all my low/mid slots full of ECCM i was still being jammed out perminantly by EC-300's alone. Not even a falcon


Where do you keep this carrier? It sounds overdue for a hull breach.


Its currently in y9g-ks with me. I also have a machariel and loki here with virtually no tanks

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Mag's
Azn Empire
#48 - 2011-11-23 21:55:39 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
I often fit ECCM, not sure why you think people do not. Now I have problems with ECCM, as there aren't ANTI Neut Mods, ANTI TP mods, ANTI web mods, etc. There are cap boosters, abs and mwds that all have a purpose other than ANTI ECM.


you must be the only person that does then Smile
Nope.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Warzon3
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2011-11-23 22:15:31 UTC
My widow can permajam up to 8 targets and it can cyno yet people yell it should get buffed all the time
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2011-11-23 23:05:56 UTC
Guys let me tell you about this one time I got jammed for 2 cycles in a row and then ran like a monkey with it's tail on fire to the forums to complain about being "permajammed"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Miss President
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
#51 - 2011-11-23 23:17:52 UTC
Stop whining. When I first trained for falcons, I spent much time on cruiser lvl 5, few days later they nerfed them.

I think enough nerfing :)
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-11-23 23:36:18 UTC
ECM is OP if you compare it to other forms of EW.

Other EW forms are :

Neutralizers

You can avoid neutralizers by staying out of range (29.4km for faction heavy neutralizers, maybe 32 for officier heavy neutralizers), you can also have a cap injector (If you cycle it correctly, you can avoid or at least reduce the neutralizers' effects. You can also have projectiles/missiles/drones, they don't care about capacitor. The defense module (Cap injector) enhance the ship even when no tracking disruptors are in effect.

Tracking Disruptors

You can avoid tracking disruptors by using drones and missiles, you can also reduce their effects by using tracking-bonused ammo, and tracking enhancers/computers. The defense modules enhance the ship even when no tracking disruptors are in effect. Not sure, but I think stacking penalties applies to those modules.

Sensor dampeners

You can avoid sensor dampeners by keeping the distance between you and your target lower than your targetting range (Depends on what your ship is, but if you have a targetting range of 20km, stay within 20km of your target, and you're still able to fight). You can use sensor boosters to reduce/negate the sensor dampener's effect. The defense module enhance the ship even when no sensor dampeners are in effect. Stacking penalties applies to those modules.

Target painter

You can't really avoid this one, but it doesn't affect your ship's ability to fight.

And then you have ECM :

You can't avoid ECM (On bonused hulls) because except if you're a capital ship (Or a heavely ECCM'd logistic), you'll probably end up permajammed. You can launch your drones ONLY if you manage to target and engage the ECM ship before you get jammed. It completly shut off a ship for 20 seconds + the time it will take the target to relock something. It shut off projectile weapons, hybrid weapons, laser weapons, missile launchers (Except with FOF/Defenders, but seriously...), neutralizers, other forms of EW or remote modules. You can't really affect ECM ships' efficiency by moving around (Except if you really leave their operationnal range, which is 120KM max). Defense modules (ECCM and Sensor backup arrays) are only usefull against ECM jammers (Not ECM drones, after some testing on TQ), and they don't enhance the ship when no ECM jammers are in effect.

That's why it's broken, in my humble opinion.

Moving around doesn't affect jammers. Bonused hulls are so powerfull you can permanantly shut off everything that is smaller than a BC, and almost permajam a BS. The ECCM module is of no use against ECM drones. ECCM modules are ONLY usefull when you encounter an ECM ship, they don't enhance anything on the ship, when a cap injector is still usefull even when you don't encounter neutralizers, or when a sensor booster is still usefull even when you don't encounter sensor dampeners.

Let's talk about drones.

Neutralizing drones are useless, except maybe when you want to keep your target's capacitor at 0 between neutralizer cycles.

Target painting drones are useless.

Sensor dampening drones are useless.

Webbing drones are slow, only in large size (for now, that will change if you consider what's in the last singularity data dump), paperthin (And I mean, really PAPERTHIN) and generally useless.

And strangely, ECM drones are the most used drones along with Warrior IIs and Hobgoblins.

My proposition to fix ECM :

-75% to small ECM drones duration, -75% small ECM drones strengh.

-50% to medium ECM drones duration, -50% medium ECM drones strengh.

-100% NON-RACIAL strengh on racial jammers. Minmatar jammers won't jam Gallente ships, no matter what. If you want versatility, use multispectrals.

-25% Optimal/Falloff for jamming modules

+100% sensor strengh increase from ECCMs, +200% sensor strengh increase from Sensor Backup Arrays

ECCM needs to affect a ship's parameter, something that will still give a bonus to the ship even when the module isn't used to protect from jamming. I don't really know what kind of parameter would it affect yet, maybe the number of allowed targets (I really don't know what else it could enhance that is not already the job of another module). But it definitely needs to add something that makes you think "I should fit an ECCM, it will help me doing this" and not "I should fit 3 ECCMs, just incase a lone falcon decloack near me".

ECCM now have two modes. Unscripted, they'll affect the local sensor strengh. Scripted, they will be just like Remote ECCMs.

A cycling ECCM module should have a percentage-based chance of stopping the ECM cycle midway. ECCM modules duration = 5s.

You now have a EW system that can be effectively countered without completely crippling your fits with 2 ECCMs. You can counter it by staying out of range (With the -25% reduced range, they are more vulnerable to long range medium guns, for example). ECM drones are now balanced (Small drones will jam frigates and eventually cruisers, medium drones will jam cruisers and battlecruisers, maybe battleships sometimes, heavy drones will perform like they are supposed to do against battleships), they don't have a 20s duration (Which was a massive pain in the butt or a easy victory, depends on which side you are). By reducing the jammer's range, you increase their vulnerability, you also increase the need of putting a not-paperthin tank on Falcons and such, this will effectively reduce the number of jammers you can fit, and thuss force players to choose between racial jammers or multispectrals.

Though, ECCM modules really needs to enhance the ship in a way or another. This is really recquired. Or else, the module is USELESS if you don't encounter falcons/scorpions, which means, no one will fit it except if they know what's coming.

I don't mind falcons. The ECM system and its defenses needs work.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#53 - 2011-11-23 23:49:14 UTC
Lol@ this thread. All the "hard core" PvPers whining about a little ECM. "I wanna be able to kill absolutely everything ever how dare there exist something that prevents this!"

How about, I dunno, someone in your fleet try to kill that Falcon first? Oh no, I forgot, you guys are all flying highly optimized short range blaster ships. How about you HTFU and make a real fleet instead of screaming for nerfs?
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2011-11-24 01:01:35 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Words



Agreed entirely. ECM needs to be brought into line not so much just to nerf it out of some type of misdirected anger, but to enable other EWar platforms an equal opportunity to be used. As it is, ECM is just so good on bonused hulls that other platforms are dismissed because they aren't nearly as effective.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#55 - 2011-11-24 01:49:24 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
Why did these every bother getting nerfed when there are rigs that counter it?

All you need is a T2 Dispersion Projector Rig and you can perma jam - yes perma jam from 80Km at least! and thats with only 1 named ECM, not even a T2 one!

I mean the accuracy falloff is 49 km, so being 80+km away is near the top end of that, how the hell can you still be perma jamming?
The decrease in falloff range is obviously not working!
Seriously! If you are gonna nerf it then do it properly!! Its a joke a ship can just perma jam you anyway!! wtf!


Have you even flown a Falcon?

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Ikra Atarm
The defenders of Greyskull inc.
#56 - 2011-11-24 02:21:53 UTC
Yes falcons are powerful but paperthin lock set ur drones after it ur whole fleet does it watch it melt also falcon is like the biggest prinary boat in game
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-11-24 02:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
WTB slot 3 booster to increase sensor strength.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-11-24 03:14:12 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
SMT008 wrote:
Words



Agreed entirely. ECM needs to be brought into line not so much just to nerf it out of some type of misdirected anger, but to enable other EWar platforms an equal opportunity to be used. As it is, ECM is just so good on bonused hulls that other platforms are dismissed because they aren't nearly as effective.



well, I can't agree with that.

here's why:

Grimpak wrote:
the issue about ECM is a little bit complex. it's not the mods that are overpowered, it's the mechanic itself. The mods work as they are supposed to, which is to be a force multiplier on the battlefield. Due to its nature, it's also limited to X-small to medium sized gang warfare (up to 40-50 people gangs), being large gangs a place where it's better to bring a dps ship.
However, because of how the ECM mechanic is (RNG-based "Yes/No" mechanism), this also means that any nerf you impart on the will make them totally useless. Likewise, a boost, no matter how tiny, will make them much stronger.
Because of these two points, ECM as it is is already balanced to the maximum effect (relatively to totally useless on non specialized hulls, but the specialized hulls are very good at jamming stuff), and because reworking the ECM mechanics from ground up means a total revamp of ECM and even maybe Ewar, doing anything to it is a pretty much daunting task that would probably require a too big ammout of work to make it worthwhile.


TL;DR: ECM is strong, maybe too strong, but it's impossible or highly inefficient to balance it further or overhauling.



best bet would be to boost the other ewar. ECM as it is, is only really OP because it's compared to TD's (meh), dampners (LOL) and painter (ROFLOL).

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#59 - 2011-11-24 04:48:13 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:

look NO ONE EVER EVER EVER EVER fits hardly 1 ECCM nevermind 2 EVER!!


Ummmm, clearly you've never flown Logistics before. ECCM are standard issue on decent Logi fits.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Iveran
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2011-11-24 04:58:41 UTC
KFenn wrote:
This is a terrible thread. Falcons are not overpowered, and you're an idiot.


QFT!!!