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Have Goons become the very thing they hated?? (i.e. BoB)

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#181 - 2014-01-10 18:49:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
But a single person being able to guide 250 people around a grid or make 250 people warp at the same time is somehow ok right?


Talk about missing the point, Grath. Those two things are whole orders of magnitude in difference.

One is keeping your fleet coherent to actually get to the fight.

The other is being able to project full dps without actually playing the game to do it.

Which is quite frankly indefensible, and it reflects poorly on you to try.


Hrm.

Mechanically, the only difference I can think of between the two things involves an FC saying:

3, 2, 1, fire

vs

3, 2, 1, jump/warp
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2014-01-10 18:52:48 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Too bad DBRB is right.

I don't believe anyone here is so stupid as to actually believe that raw numbers are balanced. They're either the ones currently using them and are being intentionally dishonest in order to convince people they're fine, or they're random pubbies who don't have anything intelligent to contribute and think they're being clever.


Andski wrote:
because surprise surprise the idea of a single person having direct control over the DPS/alpha of 255 other ships ticks all of the boxes of "this is a ridiculous mechanic"

you're free to try to refute that with weaksauce/stupid/wrong arguments


But a single person being able to guide 250 people around a grid or make 250 people warp at the same time is somehow ok right?

Yes, it is.
The rest of this proof is left as an exercise for the reader.


Grath Telkin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Again when pushed the defenders have no answers.

So let me tell you. In order to kill an archon we would need 1600 megathrons.


Guys, guys, why won't you explain how to kill us guys?

Also the Mega thing is way off, but nice try, you killed sentry carriers with only 1k Megas, everything worked fine.


But really, the proof is in the pudding, so here's my challenge to the CFC:


If you think Sentry carriers are so unkillable, you put 300 carriers alone in an unjammed system down here in the south.

I will show you how to kill them.

Is it titans? I bet it's titans.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#183 - 2014-01-10 18:54:08 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
But a single person being able to guide 250 people around a grid or make 250 people warp at the same time is somehow ok right?


Talk about missing the point, Grath. Those two things are whole orders of magnitude in difference.

One is keeping your fleet coherent to actually get to the fight.

The other is being able to project full dps without actually playing the game to do it.

Which is quite frankly indefensible, and it reflects poorly on you to try.


Hrm.

Mechanically, the only difference I can think of between the two things involves an FC saying:

3, 2, 1, fire

vs

3, 2, 1, jump/warp


Again, one kills people, one doesn't.

This is pretty first grade, it shouldn't be this hard to understand.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2014-01-10 18:55:24 UTC
You're still missing part of the proof.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#185 - 2014-01-10 18:56:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
But a single person being able to guide 250 people around a grid or make 250 people warp at the same time is somehow ok right?


Talk about missing the point, Grath. Those two things are whole orders of magnitude in difference.

One is keeping your fleet coherent to actually get to the fight.

The other is being able to project full dps without actually playing the game to do it.

Which is quite frankly indefensible, and it reflects poorly on you to try.


Hrm.

Mechanically, the only difference I can think of between the two things involves an FC saying:

3, 2, 1, fire

vs

3, 2, 1, jump/warp


Again, one kills people, one doesn't.

This is pretty first grade, it shouldn't be this hard to understand.


You can kill people while being in a different system, or off grid? Or horribly out of position?

Fascinating.

Implying shooting people is more important than proper positioning.

Please tell me more, wise one.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#186 - 2014-01-10 19:05:19 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


You can kill people while being in a different system, or off grid? Or horribly out of position?

Fascinating.

Implying shooting people is more important than proper positioning.

Please tell me more, wise one.


Sure, we can continue this.

Fleet Command mechanics are a quality of life improvement.

Demanding the right to fight without actually playing the game is horrifying entitlement, and clear evidence that the mechanic in question should be removed.

Like I said to Grath, claiming that you have the right to deal out full dps without actually playing the game while doing so is indefensible, and trying to do so does not reflect well on you.

It's literally the AFK mining of combat. You're on the wrong side of history if you're defending this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#187 - 2014-01-10 19:06:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Like I said to Grath, claiming that you have the right to be in proper position without actually playing the game while doing so is indefensible, and trying to do so does not reflect well on you.


See what I did there?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#188 - 2014-01-10 19:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Like I said to Grath, claiming that you have the right to be in proper position without actually playing the game while doing so is indefensible, and trying to do so does not reflect well on you.


See what I did there?


Yes, it's called a category error.

[edit: stupid IPhone.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#189 - 2014-01-10 19:14:00 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Like I said to Grath, claiming that you have the right to be in proper position without actually playing the game while doing so is indefensible, and trying to do so does not reflect well on you.


See what I did there?


Yes, it's called a causal error.


I don't think you know what that term means.

Regardless, anchoring a fleet on a singular person does the same exact thing for positioning (not having to "play the game") as drone assist does for dps.

So to claim that one is "worse" than the other just by proof-by-arm-waving doesn't get you anywhere.

It's not like pressing F1 and continuously locking up new targets takes any actual skill. Nor is it the only aspect of playing the game. Neither is positioning, for that matter.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#190 - 2014-01-10 19:14:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
His arguement boils down to "our blob is expensive and should be invincible to subcaps".


So the real problem is that some alliances don't want to use expense ships, because their members are bad at eve and are just going to lose them. So because the general null sec retardo **** up, can't be trusted with anything larger then a battleship, we need carriers nerfed.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2014-01-10 19:14:52 UTC
Let's also not forget that fleet warp does not ignore ship attributes the way drone assist does.

Drone assist:

  • Uses the lock range of only one ship (the assistee)
  • Uses the scan resolution of only one ship (the assistee)
  • Means ewar can only be applied to the assistee, who will have no problem fitting tons of eccm/receiving remote eccm.
  • Prevents any possible use that might have come out of the target spectrum breaker (not that it was a good module to begin with)


Fleet warp, however:

  • Is of equal utility to any fleet of any size and type, therefore not granting unequal advantages
  • Does not change align times
  • Is not always good for every ship in the fleet (some ships may need to cancel fleetwarps while others take them, and if the pilots are afk bad things can happen)
  • Equalizes the warp speed of all ships taking the fleetwarp to the slowest member, instead of the fastest. If you have even one battleship in your fleet and everyone is aligned, even your interceptors will warp at 2 AU/s instead of 8.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#192 - 2014-01-10 19:21:09 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Like I said to Grath, claiming that you have the right to deal out full dps without actually playing the game while doing so is indefensible, and trying to do so does not reflect well on you.

It's literally the AFK mining of combat. You're on the wrong side of history if you're defending this.

The problem here is that you're essentially using a drones = modules argument. But this isn't true. Lets say you're running an anom with 3 guys. You assign your drones to the guy with the best scan res, but you still have to activate your own guns. Likewise, a slowcat can't actually afk because it needs to use its remote reps. Yes, the drones can do their own thing, but they're drones.

Drones are not modules. Drones are not guns. Drones can be killed independently of their Vessel of Origin. Guns and Modules cannot.

Its kinda funny really. Ages ago, drone assist Domi's were a big thing, and no one complained about it then. The CFC didn't **** up GD with posts about drone assist during the fountain war either. But now that they've actually ran into a roadblock, it must be imbalanced, right?

I mean if the CFC can't beat it now, it must need a nerf, right?Roll
Lazy Eagle
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2014-01-10 19:25:06 UTC
Argument; batman has milllions to throw away on bat-shaped crime fighting devices, alowing him to use unfair and op tactics. He should just use sticks!


Rebuttle; Its not unfair and op, those devices are expensive, he bought them with his money, and you can just get a bunch of people to hit him with sticks.... or something


Very valid points! I'm sure this is a productive line of discussion! :smith: I expected a better argument from both parties.....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#194 - 2014-01-10 19:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
dexington wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
His arguement boils down to "our blob is expensive and should be invincible to subcaps".


So the real problem is that some alliances don't want to use expense ships, because their members are bad at eve and are just going to lose them. So because the general null sec retardo **** up, can't be trusted with anything larger then a battleship, we need carriers nerfed.


More a case of "no matter how good you are or how many you bring 90% to 95% of ships are useless". Its not a case of being unwilling to use expensive things its a case of only being able to counter these fleets with more capitals which leaves the vast bulk of players with no role in a fight.

It also means that all of the other alliances stand no chance of ever gaining any victory over either of the two superpowers.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-01-10 19:28:55 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
And their leader makes excellent laughing stock

But he's thinner and more personable than the last few.

If Remedial were still here, we'd be discussing all the different ways we can eat ham.

Spoiler: "With our mouths" would still lead in the polls.


I like ham.

We should talk about how Goons are made of ham.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Victor Dathar
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#196 - 2014-01-10 19:37:12 UTC
Hey guys Remedial like Ham lolololololol

^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2014-01-10 19:37:51 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Likewise, a slowcat can't actually afk because it needs to use its remote reps.

What remote reps?

PotatoOverdose wrote:
Its kinda funny really. Ages ago, drone assist Domi's were a big thing, and no one complained about it then. The CFC didn't **** up GD with posts about drone assist during the fountain war either. But now that they've actually ran into a roadblock, it must be imbalanced, right?

I don't know, I started posting about it before it was cool.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2014-01-10 19:43:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
dexington wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
His arguement boils down to "our blob is expensive and should be invincible to subcaps".


So the real problem is that some alliances don't want to use expense ships, because their members are bad at eve and are just going to lose them. So because the general null sec retardo **** up, can't be trusted with anything larger then a battleship, we need carriers nerfed.


More a case of "no matter how good you are or how many you bring 90% to 95% of ships are useless". Its not a case of being unwilling to use expensive things its a case of only being able to counter these fleets with more capitals which leaves the vast bulk of players with no role in a fight.

It also means that all of the other alliances stand no chance of ever gaining any victory over either of the two superpowers.


Removing the capital power, would just increase power in numbers. The situation would be unchanged, now it would just be the biggest fleet that is invincible.

How is a change from the most expensive blob is invincible to the biggest blob is invincible going to make things better, and please don't tell me it better because CFC has the biggest blob.



I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#199 - 2014-01-10 19:45:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


It also means that all of the other alliances stand no chance of ever gaining any victory over either of the two superpowers.

But if we removed slowcats, a smaller group would definitely stand a better chance of holding its own against the cfc's typical N+1 strategy, yes?
Natassia Krasnoo
R3D SHIFT
#200 - 2014-01-10 19:47:38 UTC
To answer the OP......yes, yes they have.
Do they care?.....no, no they do not.
Do I care?......no, no I do not.
Should you care?.....no, no you should not.