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New dev blog: Starbase tweaks: an update

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#101 - 2011-11-23 21:50:16 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
That sounds like a bit of an extreme, brand new source of demand for factory slots, don't you think?


More demand for scarce resources that can easily be averted by deploying more player-controlled resources sounds like a good thing to me.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#102 - 2011-11-23 21:57:03 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
The only benefit to these blocks is that they remove the need for a spreadsheet.

They do not make logistics easier, they make it harder.


Blocks make logistics much easier: your fuel-hauling-monkey only has to know one thing: shove as many blocks into the fuel bay as will fit. Actually, make that two: put Gallente fuel blocks into the Gallente/Serpentis towers. No more mistakes when someone misreads a spreadsheet and puts 12900 units in instead of 19200 (or 1920 units, because they dropped a zero).

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#103 - 2011-11-23 21:57:32 UTC
I love how when a CCP plan gets a lot of negative feedback (like this one), out march supporters of whatever it is, that have never posted before. Roll CCP-Alt much?


Azurun Li wrote:
The changeover plan is a good one. I support leaving it as-is.

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Nopsa
Lithium Flower.
#104 - 2011-11-23 22:07:08 UTC
You really going through all this hazzle with system that's supposed to be replaced soon anyways?

Would some kind of roadmap on your aims of developement of the new system...
Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#105 - 2011-11-23 22:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Helena Russell Makanen
Please do not proceed with this plan as you have stated it so far. You are making POS fueling MORE difficult instead of easier for everyone except those who plan to simply buy the pellets.

1) You are making PI harder/more expensive
2) You are adding BP's to add a manufacturing step to those who wish to continue making their own fuel.
3) You are using the BP aspect to try to (once again) force people to do faction warfare or incursions.
4) In many stations manufacturing slots are already at a premium, so now you are going to make that situation WORSE? FOREVER?

Don't even get me started on you forcing us to run around and supplying our POS(es) with old and new fuel, not to mention the thousands of people who aren't reading the forum and will simply have their POS(es) go offline.

Anyway where is the benefit for anyone except those who don't do their own fuel making and simply buy pellets? Are they more important than everyone else? That seems to be what you are saying.

I would appreciate a response.

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Sneaky Neko
Invalid Input
#106 - 2011-11-23 22:47:39 UTC
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
I love how when a CCP plan gets a lot of negative feedback (like this one), out march supporters of whatever it is, that have never posted before. Roll CCP-Alt much?

Maybe there are just more supporters then not.

Personally I'm really looking forward to the POS changes, and I know my corp mates (the ones who manage towers at least) are also looking forward to them.
Waukesha
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2011-11-23 22:48:17 UTC
Liquid ozone requirement needs to be less.

Along with the time cost of having to manufacture these blocks, large reaction towers are going to cost more to run.



Pierced Brosmen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2011-11-23 22:53:06 UTC
I surely hope CCP forsees the increased traffic in the high-sec systems with Thukker Mix stations and place them on reinforced nodes for a few days after the expansion
Scottishprog
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#109 - 2011-11-23 23:49:19 UTC
Just throwing my support behind these changes...

yeah, there is another step.... but I run a medium P

Not having to haul out EvE HQ every time I need to service the tower....

The manufacturing time is worth it to me at that point....
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2011-11-23 23:53:48 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
ZaBob wrote:

Just to be clear, we would, of course, make the fuel at our POS. Hauling fuel blocks is obviously stupid.

But getting the array brought in, set up, the BPOs, researched, and going through the extra step -- not one BIT of that makes my life simpler. It is 100% extra PITA.

In fact, I'd haul ice to our hisec tower over fuel blocks, too, for exactly the same reason. The main issue is m3, leading to lots of hauling, NOT complexity.


My apologies, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the degree of added difficulty this provides us in wormholes. There are, as I'm certain you're aware, two main schools regarding fueling pos's in holes... those who do PI for fuel and those who don't. Regardless of the path you wander, you're still required to bring in ice drippings for the fuels PI can't provide (in addition to PI fuels if you don't make your own).
.....

2. Consider switching your PI over to high value P3 and P4 products to export, buy pellets for import. Yeah, it may be annoying to switch the PI networks over, but if you run the numbers... well, I'm seeing overall profit potential that's rather attractive.

Yes, it looks on the surface like there's great PITA potential, and there is... but only if you let it.

Oh, as an aside, someone calculated the volumes of the fuels and the blocks and it turns out there's a bit of compression happening... the pellets take a bit less space than the volume of their parts.


It's 100% *pure* extra PITA -- but not, as you note, a GREAT PITA, just no benefit. I didn't intend to imply it was a large one, just that it goes in the opposite direction from what was intended. I can certainly handle the extra steps, but they ARE extra steps for no benefit.

As for compression -- it's only compression if you also haul planetary in. It's *expansion* if you formerly hauled ice only, and now must haul in pellets.

But you're right -- those who don't do PI in the WH, are already doing that extra hauling; those people WILL see a benefit. But that's not either of us.

That's why hauling in pellets would be a silly thing to do. So I won't do it; I'll make them in the array. Which I don't happen to have. I'll fix that.

But cutting the size of the ice fuel would have more impact. Alternatively, cutting the size of the pellets to be less than the corresponding ice fuel would give me something to cheer about.

My preferred solution would be the first, but the second would be OK, too. I don't hate fuel pellets. I do like the idea of making CCP's job a little easier with a simpler fix that does more to save people time and effort.

As it is, though, it's pure negative from my standpoint. Not serious -- not as bad as I fear POCOs will be as presently constituted, but not positive, either.
District Jr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2011-11-23 23:57:52 UTC
Knug LiDi wrote:
Brunaburh wrote:
Although I am glad you listened to the concerns about block size and faction towers, there still remains one significant issue, which is the fuel consumption.

Riptard Teg covered it in a blog post, if you aren't running a full grid/full cpu tower (as in probably 90% of towers out there) there are significant changes to cost since you aren't allowing for fuel variance in the ice products.

I want to say this again, I love the idea of fuel blocks.

I don't love the idea that fuel isn't variable based on CPU/Grid usage.

I mean really, you think after all these years it would be so hard to make a fuel block of all the static fuels and just have to measure Ozone and Heavy Water?

Fuel blocks should combine the PI materials and the Isotopes (all static measured fuels today), and then the ozone and heavy water should be variable (as it is today) based on usage.

It's not that complicated. It's also not 75-IQ stupid, which means it requires thought and planning, things that EVE is known for (in a good way).

Fuel blocks would still be racial due to the isotope inclusion.

Please?

EDIT WTF? I can't link the damn url. BBCODE failure??


This. Please. Those of us that conserve fuel (and effort) now have no reason not to switch off the toys when we go to bed. Folks that ran their towers at full CPU/PG throttle won't see a change, but those of us that ran EFFICIENT POS operations are left simply to pay for more fuel. The "complexity" that some folks are seeking to remove allowed us to operate at a higher level.

The changes to the cost to produce reactions at POSs are very sensitive to operating costs, as our percentages are slim. I speak as someone who doesn't get the moon goo for free.

ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2011-11-24 00:04:28 UTC
Kristen Andelare wrote:


ZaBob, I'm wondering what you would do if you hauled Ice to a Highsec POS instead of pellets? You can't fit a refining array on a highsec POS, and the m3 of a block of ice is far higher than the Ice fuels you get out of it once refined. I think you might have not thought that one through quite fully.




Um, I don't haul ice around, any further than necessary. If I have ice, I refine it, then haul that, of course! If you're in Gallente space, with an Amarr tower, the ice you need isn't anywhere nearby anyway. Mostly I end up hauling it from Jita, though, and let someone else spend their time ice mining.

(If we had ice belts in the wormholes, that'd make me happy, though...)

And the pellets, I'd manufacture in station, wherever the ice and the PI stuff meet, which might or might not be in the same system as the POS. I grant you, you save a bit of hauling if you ha've located your PI somewhere inconvenient to the POS. But it's easy enough to not do that.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#113 - 2011-11-24 00:47:49 UTC
So, will the BPOs and so forth for fuel pellets be available with the launch of Crucible, so that POS owners have about 2 weeks to buy or produce pellets before the fuel switchover?
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2011-11-24 00:51:58 UTC
Aluminy wrote:

m3 = i do believe several have done the math and the cubes for the same amount of time now compared to ice / pi fuels of an equal time the cubes come out roughly smaller anyway... not by much no but there is no EXTRA hauling here... even for those that manufacture the pellets, you had to haul the fuel in to begin with... so you either haul the ice like you always have or you haul the pellet... no change here really~



I really think you shouldn't whine about people whining, when you haven't even bothered to understand what they're talking about.

Compare the m3 of the *ice fuel alone* (which is all we need haul) to the m3 of the fuel pellets.

I gave hard numbers way back when.

Maybe instead of flaming and whining yourself, you could engage in constructive dialog? Reading and thinking before writing might be a good place to start.
Caghji
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#115 - 2011-11-24 01:27:40 UTC
Quote:
As it stands now, the blocks add more work, not less. They're adding an additional step to manage.

The problem with fueling towers is the trips you have to make back and forth to manage them. The cost in jumping this fuel around is also something not factored into the sov bonuses. Making the fuel blocks smaller will make a LOT of people's lives who are slaves to this game easier.

The blocks don't help us unless they're smaller M^3.


+1

Quote:
m3 = i do believe several have done the math and the cubes for the same amount of time now compared to ice / pi fuels of an equal time the cubes come out roughly smaller anyway... not by much no but there is no EXTRA hauling here... even for those that manufacture the pellets, you had to haul the fuel in to begin with... so you either haul the ice like you always have or you haul the pellet... no change here really~


I disagree - the extra haulage is taking PI and ICE to factory area - then taking from factory area to POSs

My corp manage 32 POSs - downsizing the pellets would make a lot of difference to our hauling time

With no change to the m3 then its just another level of complexity with no benefit to me - 'professional POS fuel haulers very quickly learn the weekly unit amounts and dropping fuel in each pos is very quick atm. There is no reason to change the fuel to pellets - unless the pellets are significantly smaller

The time refueling is taken up having to go back and forth to the fuel central hanger to refill the freighter or JF
Largo Coronet
Perkone
Caldari State
#116 - 2011-11-24 01:32:47 UTC
Am I blind, or has there been no CCP response in this thread to the loss of sovereignty bonuses? And if there hasn't been, could we please get one?

This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.

Someday, this signature may save my life.
Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#117 - 2011-11-24 01:33:47 UTC
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
Don't even get me started on you forcing us to run around and supplying our POS(es) with old and new fuel, not to mention the thousands of people who aren't reading the forum and will simply have their POS(es) go offline.


Let the Corporate Hangar Array massacre begin!!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2011-11-24 03:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Misread comment
Dario Kaelenter
ACME HARDWARE
Exxitium
#119 - 2011-11-24 03:53:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
we'd still have to prioritize testing the upgrade over testing other stuff, which would still mean cutting a bunch of features to get this in


Why, what features do you have planned for January?


We're always working on something


I don't really see the need for these blocks anyway ... at present more than one corp member can have a role in minding POS fuels as someone doing PI in the same system (especially lo or null sec while they still can ) just exports their Fuel item and feeds what's needed straight into the POS.
Then we can have others mining Ice or buying ice product to haul that in when needed. So you can split up the POS management function.
Now it has to be hauled to central point (station/POS) to first be made into blocks ... or we have to have the right factory array as well to make the blocks 1st !!
Talk about double handling where ya shouldn't need toWhat?

And there's many more important issues and factors to consider on the POS front than just how to fuel them !
Such as why does my chain onlining of 4 structures with 3 min online time seems to always take more than 14 mins without any distractions ? Early experiments in time-dilation perhaps ?! Tho the new online/anchor times will help a lot.
I think there may be many more than me that still have dreams about waiting for things to online when setting up a POS and watching our lives slowly disappear Blink

I hoped this change may counter the increase in running costs that came about when trade items moved to PI tho with factoring in Maximum LO and HW use in the production and tho costs of production this is yet another increase in the cost of running a POS.

Here's my calculations for a Large Amarr Research POS from a little before PI came along :

.........................Price/Unit........Price per Month
Racial Isotopes... 500............151,200,000
Heavy Water..........30................. 3,024,000
Liquid Ozone.......310..................9,374,400
Coolant.................850..................4,569,600
Robotics..............6400 .................4,300,800
Mechnical Parts...580..................1,948,800
Oxygen.....................95..................1,596,000
Enriched Uranium..4800..........12,902,400
Total bill.....................................188,916,000
Fixed Price (trade items)..........20,748,000

While a Lo Sec POS running reaction with defences cost about 20 mill more to run using more LO than HW.

After PI prices jumped up and we were looking at :

.........................Price/Unit........Price per Month
Racial Isotopes.....450............136,080,000
Heavy Water.............20.................2,016,000
Liquid Ozone.........300.................9,072,000
Coolant................7200................38,707,200
Robotics...........48000.................32,256,000
Mechnical Parts...7000..............23,520,000
Oxygen...................150..................2,520,000
Enriched Uranium....9000.........24,192,000
Total bill.....................................268,363,200
Fixed Price (trade items)..........82,488,000

PI prices have only drifted up and with the pending changed to Custom Offices and access I think the general population of Eve expect the prices to rise yet more.

With approximate market prices today for our Large Amarr R&D POS we're now looking at :

.........................Price/Unit........Price per Month
Racial Isotopes....450............136,080,000
Heavy Water..........135 ..............13,608,000
Liquid Ozone.........450..............13,608,000
Coolant................9000..............48,384,000
Robotics...........68950...............46,334,400
Mechnical Parts...10000..........33,600,000
Oxygen..................300..................5,040,000
Enriched Uranium...9700........26,073,600
Total bill.....................................322,728,000
Fixed Price (trade items)..........111,048,000

with the HW & LO components both at 150/150 then this also adds an additional 31 to 32 mill a month to the fuel cost.

Please reconsider the LO/HW factor in the production.

Sure we would only have 2 things (fuel blocks and charters) to haul but we not have the extra step and cost I'm sure of turning the fuel components into blocks.
For corps that buy their fuel this will mean an additional cost as why would any corp/producer provide fuel blocks for less than the cost of the individual factors that go into them ?

Not sure if anyone talked with Eve's Economist on this but as the cost of running a POS goes into the cost of moon minerals mined, reactions for Tech 2 build parts so effectively into Tech 2 production and also R&D and likely Capital production.
So the knock on effects of this are just more inflation.

When the additional POS upgrades come along I hope they are spectacular so we finally get more for our isk than a big piñata in space to attract Capital/BS & Logi blobs Roll
DeLaBu
CAF Industries
#120 - 2011-11-24 05:14:53 UTC
In general I think these are good changes.

Extra manufacturing step, thus creating another manufacturing niche is good.

In order for such a niche to have demand and stimulate trade and player interaction, there must be some "potential energy" to drive the need for it. Currently that "potential energy" is the pain of doing the extra manufacturing step vs paying someone else for his man-hours, skills and slots.

Such potential can be increased further by reducing hauling size.

This increases the potential energy for trade by leaving far from high sec POS owners with two options:
1. Import(haul) or produce lots of materials and then manufacture self in order to save money.
2. Buy from someone else in order to save hauling pain AND manufacturing pain.

At the moment, far from high sec POS owners only see the benefit of less complex fueling of the tower itself, but that is offset by the more pain of the extra step of manufacturing.