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Why do people fly BS?

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Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#481 - 2014-01-10 08:48:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Romanov
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Did you seriously just compare our AFK Ishtar fit against that Proteus fit? A faction fit Proteus no less?

It'd be different if I compared a faction fit Ishtar against a T2 Proteus and said, "see the Ishtar is almost as good" however I did the reverse. The T2 fit Ishtar (HAC) is close to as good as the faction fit T3 apart from the EHP which would still be well in excess of the Ishtar even with T2. So it doesn't matter.

Edit: Also since there were a distinct lack of T3's on the killboard, I had to choose something, no T2 fit ones on there :)


Did you consider WHY that might be? Ok, lets pretend we're comparing apples with apples here. I can squint hard enough for that.

Here's a thought; perhaps the KB looks the way it does is because a faction fit T3 cruiser is less likely to die in combat than a PVE fit Ishtar. Gee, it's almost as if one of these apples is actually a hand grenade painted red, and the other is just an apple.

Guess which one is just an apple.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#482 - 2014-01-10 08:49:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Plus they're way better than T3's. Like I said earlier, I have all 5's on Proteus and Loki but I use Ishtar. Being able to apply 900dps out to 50km, with tracking that'll instapop interceptors at 30k or less, 700 dps out to 100km, 600 to 130... 150m sig...

No T3 can get even close to that.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#483 - 2014-01-10 08:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Plus they're way better than T3's. Like I said earlier, I have all 5's on Proteus and Loki but I use Ishtar. Being able to apply 900dps out to 50km, with tracking that'll instapop interceptors at 30k or less, 700 dps out to 100km, 600 to 130... 150m sig...

No T3 can get even close to that.


T3 wipe the floor with them if not for the instant and perfect hitting alpha and the need to retrain for the subsystem if you do die. Incidently, how much ehp does this max dps ishtar have?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#484 - 2014-01-10 08:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Did you seriously just compare our AFK Ishtar fit against that Proteus fit? A faction fit Proteus no less?

It'd be different if I compared a faction fit Ishtar against a T2 Proteus and said, "see the Ishtar is almost as good" however I did the reverse. The T2 fit Ishtar (HAC) is close to as good as the faction fit T3 apart from the EHP which would still be well in excess of the Ishtar even with T2. So it doesn't matter.

Edit: Also since there were a distinct lack of T3's on the killboard, I had to choose something, no T2 fit ones on there :)


Did you consider WHY that might be? Ok, lets pretend we're comparing apples with apples here. I can squint hard enough for that.

Here's a thought; perhaps the KB looks the way it does is because a faction fit T3 cruiser is less likely to die in combat than a PVE fit Ishtar. Gee, it's almost as if one of these apples is actually a hand grenade painted red, and the other is just an apple.

Guess which one is just an apple.

No its not the case IMO. I looked at your kills as well and the same pattern is shown there. Distinct lack of T3's vs HACS. Unless of course your saying they're so unkillable that when your alliances in their T3's and other ships meet others in T3's only the non-T3 die while the T3's just giveup unable to kill each other.. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption.

Also its more common in my opinion that a T3 pvp ship, pretty much any pvp ship, will die more often then a PvE fit Ishtar. The latter should very rarely die at all.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#485 - 2014-01-10 09:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Plus they're way better than T3's. Like I said earlier, I have all 5's on Proteus and Loki but I use Ishtar. Being able to apply 900dps out to 50km, with tracking that'll instapop interceptors at 30k or less, 700 dps out to 100km, 600 to 130... 150m sig...

No T3 can get even close to that.


T3 wipe the floor with them if not for the instant and perfect hitting alpha and the need to retrain for the subsystem if you do die. Incidently, how much ehp does this max dps ishtar have?

30k or thereabouts.

T3 might wipe the floor with them but likely purely based on the inordinate amount of EHP and only if they manage to get in range. Which is quite a feat with some HACS.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#486 - 2014-01-10 09:25:27 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Also its more common in my opinion that a T3 pvp ship, pretty much any pvp ship, will die more often then a PvE fit Ishtar. The latter should very rarely die at all.


Which is, naturally, why you found a stack of dead T3s on our killboards, rather than PVE Ishtars...

Oh wait. Roll

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#487 - 2014-01-10 09:44:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Plus they're way better than T3's. Like I said earlier, I have all 5's on Proteus and Loki but I use Ishtar. Being able to apply 900dps out to 50km, with tracking that'll instapop interceptors at 30k or less, 700 dps out to 100km, 600 to 130... 150m sig...

No T3 can get even close to that.


T3 wipe the floor with them if not for the instant and perfect hitting alpha and the need to retrain for the subsystem if you do die. Incidently, how much ehp does this max dps ishtar have?

30k or thereabouts.

T3 might wipe the floor with them but likely purely based on the inordinate amount of EHP and only if they manage to get in range. Which is quite a feat with some HACS.


T3 will rip them apart.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#488 - 2014-01-10 10:33:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Plus they're way better than T3's. Like I said earlier, I have all 5's on Proteus and Loki but I use Ishtar. Being able to apply 900dps out to 50km, with tracking that'll instapop interceptors at 30k or less, 700 dps out to 100km, 600 to 130... 150m sig...

No T3 can get even close to that.


T3 wipe the floor with them if not for the instant and perfect hitting alpha and the need to retrain for the subsystem if you do die. Incidently, how much ehp does this max dps ishtar have?

30k or thereabouts.

T3 might wipe the floor with them but likely purely based on the inordinate amount of EHP and only if they manage to get in range. Which is quite a feat with some HACS.


T3 will rip them apart.

Only the magic ones, the normal ones have limitations which could cause them to die vs HAC.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#489 - 2014-01-10 10:34:57 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Which BS have been made obsolete by tengu fleets?

I'm not arguing that BSes have been made obsolete by T3s so I'm not sure if your question is relevant. I'm saying they're more comparable to BSes than other cruisers are (due to tank) and that they are more comparable to BSes than they are to other cruisers. They outclass all cruisers greatly in combat roles.


So you assert. Which cruisers in which roles?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#490 - 2014-01-10 10:40:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Plus they're way better than T3's. Like I said earlier, I have all 5's on Proteus and Loki but I use Ishtar. Being able to apply 900dps out to 50km, with tracking that'll instapop interceptors at 30k or less, 700 dps out to 100km, 600 to 130... 150m sig...

No T3 can get even close to that.


T3 wipe the floor with them if not for the instant and perfect hitting alpha and the need to retrain for the subsystem if you do die. Incidently, how much ehp does this max dps ishtar have?

30k or thereabouts.

T3 might wipe the floor with them but likely purely based on the inordinate amount of EHP and only if they manage to get in range. Which is quite a feat with some HACS.


T3 will rip them apart.


MWD cerbs vs Legions. Legions won't achieve much.

HACs are faster, and have an mwd Sig bonus.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#491 - 2014-01-10 10:50:26 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Also its more common in my opinion that a T3 pvp ship, pretty much any pvp ship, will die more often then a PvE fit Ishtar. The latter should very rarely die at all.


Which is, naturally, why you found a stack of dead T3s on our killboards, rather than PVE Ishtars...

Oh wait. Roll

The reason there were no significant number of T3 is likely they're not being used as much as people think. The likely reason they're not being used as much is there are probably better ships to use over T3 (whether due to cost, SP loss, a preference for pure role specificity or otherwise).

If that's true and Goonwaffe PvP losses reflect average usage in PvP then any nerf will see T3 use pretty much disappear which would be foolish.



CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#492 - 2014-01-10 11:47:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Only the magic ones, the normal ones have limitations which could cause them to die vs HAC.


Nothing magic about it. With only 50k ehp that ishtar is squishy and will splat when a tengu fleet whcks it.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#493 - 2014-01-10 13:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Is this argument really still going? Why are people still using T3s as an example of why Battleships aren't good enough when we know CCP are going to nerf them. They've categorically stated that they don't like the fact they can even compete with Battleships for their niche.

Edit: I just had a lol at reading a few posts from the last few pages. Seems like no one can agree on anything (and I don't agree a lot of what you lot are saying either). Most of the comments/statements in here are far too broad in general. Also, why are you talking about Cruisers vs T3 hulls? How is that relevant?

Also, everyone is making massive assumptions about fleet size, range, situation, position, fittings etc that shouldn't be getting made when your trying to compare two ship classes. A kiting fleet of cerbs will tear apart most legion fleets in empty space, keeping their distance. If that same cerb fleet jumps through a gate with that same Legion fleet on the other side, then things become very different indeed.

This non-issue is far too complicated to not specify which situations we are talking about.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#494 - 2014-01-10 13:35:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Which BS have been made obsolete by tengu fleets?

I'm not arguing that BSes have been made obsolete by T3s so I'm not sure if your question is relevant. I'm saying they're more comparable to BSes than other cruisers are (due to tank) and that they are more comparable to BSes than they are to other cruisers. They outclass all cruisers greatly in combat roles.


So you assert. Which cruisers in which roles?

HAC, T1, faction.

Oh god.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#495 - 2014-01-10 23:37:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Plus they're way better than T3's. Like I said earlier, I have all 5's on Proteus and Loki but I use Ishtar. Being able to apply 900dps out to 50km, with tracking that'll instapop interceptors at 30k or less, 700 dps out to 100km, 600 to 130... 150m sig...

No T3 can get even close to that.


T3 wipe the floor with them if not for the instant and perfect hitting alpha and the need to retrain for the subsystem if you do die. Incidently, how much ehp does this max dps ishtar have?


It's almost as if there can be situational reasons to use both ships.

Really most of the GrrrrT3s threads where because HACs were terrible or because certain demographics really hated off grid boosting. What's left now? GrrrrT3s are flown as fleetships! But so are battleships still! This is a problem because GrrrT3!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#496 - 2014-01-10 23:38:51 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Which BS have been made obsolete by tengu fleets?

I'm not arguing that BSes have been made obsolete by T3s so I'm not sure if your question is relevant. I'm saying they're more comparable to BSes than other cruisers are (due to tank) and that they are more comparable to BSes than they are to other cruisers. They outclass all cruisers greatly in combat roles.


So you assert. Which cruisers in which roles?

HAC, T1, faction.


Which T3 obsoletes the Falcon?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#497 - 2014-01-10 23:43:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Really most of the GrrrrT3s threads where because HACs were terrible or because certain demographics really hated off grid boosting. What's left now? GrrrrT3s are flown as fleetships! But so are battleships still! This is a problem because GrrrT3!


So should T3s be balanced against cruisers or battleships? They can't have the best of both worlds.

Oh god.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#498 - 2014-01-10 23:45:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Which T3 obsoletes the Falcon?


Bingo. For that matter most of the recons do their jobs better than a T3 fit to do a similar job as well. See the web ranges of a max rank loki vs huggin/rapier.

We don't talk about the Pilgrim. Poor thing.

The sooner people realize that different ships have different roles and capabilities the sooner this entire dumb ******* thread can wrap up and die.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#499 - 2014-01-10 23:47:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Which T3 obsoletes the Falcon?

I don't know.

Oh god.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#500 - 2014-01-11 00:09:59 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Really most of the GrrrrT3s threads where because HACs were terrible or because certain demographics really hated off grid boosting. What's left now? GrrrrT3s are flown as fleetships! But so are battleships still! This is a problem because GrrrT3!


So should T3s be balanced against cruisers or battleships? They can't have the best of both worlds.


Why should they be balanced against either?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016