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Riot Girl

You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack

Likes received: 3,946

#461 - 2014-01-10 05:50:34 UTC

Malcanis wrote:

Which BS have been made obsolete by tengu fleets?

I'm not arguing that BSes have been made obsolete by T3s so I'm not sure if your question is relevant. I'm saying they're more comparable to BSes than other cruisers are (due to tank) and that they are more comparable to BSes than they are to other cruisers. They outclass all cruisers greatly in combat roles.

Oh god.

Infinity Ziona

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,796

#462 - 2014-01-10 05:54:17 UTC | Edited by: Infinity Ziona

Riot Girl wrote:

Malcanis wrote:

Which BS have been made obsolete by tengu fleets?

Except HAC and HIC's and umm Logistics :) So No they don't. Oh and Pirate cruisers (well some of them)

Edit:

However you are imo, correct that they cross the threshhold into the battleship's territory in regards to ehp. But EHP on battleships should be more in the realm of 300k to 500k given the cap like penalties they incur for their crappy extra HP.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Riot Girl

You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack

Likes received: 3,946

#463 - 2014-01-10 05:59:21 UTC

Infinity Ziona wrote:

The only time range is really going to be important is fleet fights

Which is what I was talking about.

Quote:

So in the majority of EVE pvp which is not the two instances above

I'm not sure about that, I don't have any figures. HACs would be preferable for small gang stuff in general though, yes. Then again, T3s would be even more preferable.

Quote:

While a battleship may have more EHP on paper it also takes signficantly more dps from all incoming damage than smaller faster ships like HAC.

It does, yes. Long range webs can help with that though.

Oh god.


Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack Likes received: 3,946	#464 - 2014-01-10 06:01:44 UTC Infinity Ziona wrote: Except HAC and HIC's and umm Logistics :) So No they don't. Oh and Pirate cruisers (well some of them). I don't really consider HICs and Logi to be combat roles, as such. I mean, a logi boat isn't winning any fights and I don't think a HIC is either. Oh god.

Infinity Ziona

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,796

#465 - 2014-01-10 06:22:30 UTC | Edited by: Infinity Ziona

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

And yet battleships can kill both effectively, it just happens to be a game of fitting your ship for the specific role.

You have to fit a T2 or T3 cruiser accordingly in order to kill battleships. Likewise, you have to use specific battleships and fit them accordingly in order to kill T2 and T3 cruisers

How so? If I want to kill a battleship in a Prot all I need is blasters, prop mod (usually I use 10mn AB), scram and cap injector with 400's. 1600 plate, hardners, mag stab and dcu...

If I want to kill a cruiser / bc I'll use the same thing....

No need to fit differently in a T3, HAC, or any other ship.

The only time that changes is against an ECM / Neut or specialist battleship like a Mach or Dominix... the rest of the general tank and spank BS need no special refitting... they die very easily

Riot Girl wrote:

Infinity Ziona wrote:

Except HAC and HIC's and umm Logistics :) So No they don't. Oh and Pirate cruisers (well some of them).

I don't really consider HICs and Logi to be combat roles, as such. I mean, a logi boat isn't winning any fights and I don't think a HIC is either.

I don't do fleet fights but I know logi's and HIC's in small gang are deadly. The main thing though is they have a role that is not able to be matched by a T3 in any way.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#466 - 2014-01-10 06:26:16 UTC | Edited by: James Amril-Kesh

Infinity Ziona wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Nobody asked for your input. Nobody wanted a solo analysis.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Infinity Ziona

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,796

#467 - 2014-01-10 06:32:30 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Infinity Ziona wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Nobody asked for your input. Nobody wanted a solo analysis.

LMAO. Sorry but you don't decide who posts in this thread. Perhaps start your own thread on your own personal forum :)

Your post was inaccurate nonsense, needed to point that out.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#468 - 2014-01-10 06:33:41 UTC

Malcanis wrote:

The problem with this post is that almost everything in it is completely wrong.

That's nice and all; I'm just repeating what CCP has told us. If you have any insight into what they're actually going to do with the ships and the reasons why, then by all means, go ahead…

On the other hand, if you simply disagree with the reasons they've provided, we have a different issue.

Riot Girl

You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack

Likes received: 3,946

#469 - 2014-01-10 06:47:46 UTC | Edited by: Riot Girl

Malcanis, your argument doesn't make much sense. Just because T3s don't obsolete other ships, that doesn't mean they're balanced. The fact we're arguing about T3s in a BS thread should be indicative of that. To be honest, I'm not even sure what your stance on the matter is. I'm just assuming you think they're okay because you seem to be arguing against nerfing them, which I find absurd (in your case, specifically).

Oh god.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#470 - 2014-01-10 06:50:47 UTC

Riot Girl wrote:

We could be arguing about HACs too. Does that mean HACs are too powerful since they can be used in place of BS?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)


Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack Likes received: 3,946	#471 - 2014-01-10 07:02:59 UTC James Amril-Kesh wrote: We could be arguing about HACs too. Does that mean HACs are too powerful since they can be used in place of BS? Is a fleet of HACs reasonably matched against an appropriate fleet of BSes? I'm not sure, I haven't been involved in null sov stuff since before the HAC rebalance. Oh god.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#472 - 2014-01-10 07:07:21 UTC

Riot Girl wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

We could be arguing about HACs too. Does that mean HACs are too powerful since they can be used in place of BS?

Is a fleet of HACs reasonably matched against an appropriate fleet of BSes? I'm not sure, I haven't been involved in null sov stuff since before the HAC rebalance.

Most battleship doctrines don't do very well against HACs. The few that do are usually designed with HACs in mind.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)


Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack Likes received: 3,946	#473 - 2014-01-10 07:17:13 UTC Quote: The few that do are usually designed with HACs in mind. So that would be the appropriate fleet I mentioned. Quote: Most battleship doctrines don't do very well against HACs. Then I guess they'll do even worse against T3s. Oh god.


James Amril-Kesh Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 11,532	#474 - 2014-01-10 07:19:07 UTC Riot Girl wrote: Then I guess they'll do even worse against T3s. Not with the appropriate fleet you mentioned. Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Riot Girl

You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack

Likes received: 3,946

#475 - 2014-01-10 07:23:26 UTC | Edited by: Riot Girl

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Riot Girl wrote:

Then I guess they'll do even worse against T3s.

Not with the appropriate fleet you mentioned.

Indeed. My point is that we can argue about HACs being OP if you want, but every point you make in that argument will only strengthen my argument that T3s are OP because T3s, in general, outclass HACs.

Oh god.

Infinity Ziona

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,796

#476 - 2014-01-10 08:17:48 UTC | Edited by: Infinity Ziona

Riot Girl wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Riot Girl wrote:

Then I guess they'll do even worse against T3s.

Not with the appropriate fleet you mentioned.

Well not really...

Take the following random fits I pulled from Zkill -

[Proteus, ]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Shadow Serpentis Armor Explosive Hardener

Domination Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Gistum C-Type 10MN Microwarpdrive

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5

vs

[Ishtar]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Warp Core Stabilizer I

Drone Navigation Computer I
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I

Drone Link Augmentor I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

Warrior II x2
Wasp II x5

Like you said the Proteus has some absurd EHP, which imo should get a nerf. However comparatively the status otherwise are pretty similiar.

MOST IMPORTANTLY,

where did these fits come from, I got them from Zkill, Goonwaffe losses, last 10 pages, 50 kills per page, so out of 500 kills only 4 or 5 T3 vs tens of HAC's, the majority Ishtars.

If one assumes that Goonwaffe is an average alliance, and number of losses gives a general idea of ship popularity, and that ship popularity is based on ship ability, cost and performance, then its very clear that T3 are not the wtfpwnmobile that people think they are.

I did the same with gentlemans agreement and few other corps / alliances and the pattern is repeatable, both for battleships as well as T3. It only changes when you find fleet battles occurring with fleets of Tengu, Typhoon, Domis etc but they're more aberrations.

I'm tempted to write a plugin to EVEHQ that'll pull kills from zkill and seperate the data properly in pvp / pve / ship types / null / low etc but not sure if its worth it, people will still blindly argue in the face of provable fact their biased stupid points...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Whole Squid 653
Arkady Romanov Whole Squid Likes received: 653	#477 - 2014-01-10 08:22:36 UTC \| Edited by: Arkady Romanov 1 Did you seriously just compare our AFK Ishtar fit against that Proteus fit? A faction fit Proteus no less? Whole Squid: Get Inked.


Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack Likes received: 3,946	#478 - 2014-01-10 08:23:47 UTC That's why I said 'in general'. There are exceptions, such as the Ishtar (which is more to do with drones than the hull) and Cerberus for its range (which is a situational thing). Oh god.

Bat Country Pandemic Horde 19,001
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Horde Likes received: 19,001	#479 - 2014-01-10 08:25:27 UTC 1 Its not exactly shocking that ishtars show up a lot as most powerblocks fly fleets of them simply for the drone assist.

Infinity Ziona

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,796

#480 - 2014-01-10 08:40:49 UTC | Edited by: Infinity Ziona

Arkady Romanov wrote:

Did you seriously just compare our AFK Ishtar fit against that Proteus fit? A faction fit Proteus no less?

It'd be different if I compared a faction fit Ishtar against a T2 Proteus and said, "see the Ishtar is almost as good" however I did the reverse. The T2 fit Ishtar (HAC) is close to as good as the faction fit T3 apart from the EHP which would still be well in excess of the Ishtar even with T2. So it doesn't matter.

Edit: Also since there were a distinct lack of T3's on the killboard, I had to choose something, no T2 fit ones on there :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

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EVE General Discussion

You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Sunshine and Lollipops

Whole Squid

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde