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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Entering a Faction Warfare Plex without declaring War

Author
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#121 - 2014-01-10 02:38:57 UTC
The point being is whiners don't want consequences for their actions.

Hello Kitty online is that way ---->

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#122 - 2014-01-10 02:47:59 UTC
Y'know what, this is the first time I've participated in a forum topic and based solely upon the interaction therein decided I actually don't like someone.

Your point is about as blunt as your intellect, seems to me.

You have a good evenin' now.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2014-01-10 02:58:01 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
In active warzones military bases have different types of perimeters with different levels of response. In many cases, any breach of certain perimeters is met by immediate armed response.

Really, this part of the discussion is yet another thats been beaten to death. Any argument based on RL practices compared to what goes on in FW is inherently kinda silly, but claiming that armed "neutral" parties in active warzones wouldn't get completely shot to **** is ridiculous. In RL you're only allowed to be armed and "neutral" within your own damn borders. Even then people get shot and killed during border skirmishes when armed groups start messing about.


Plexes aren't bases, they're objectives in the field, like hills and islands, and some may consider FW areas their home and within their own borders. FW space does not only belong to the militas We're talking about ships, not soldiers. Even the U.S. navy has enough sense to let neutral warships pass by.

Seriously, this thread is a FW LP farmer whine that they may have to spend some chump change to take the initiative in a fight.

Buck up, turn your safetys off and go mug someone. If you ain't dying, you ain't trying.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#124 - 2014-01-10 03:09:24 UTC
Nonsense. LP farmers never engage neutrals in the first place. Go back to the first page of this thread.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2014-01-10 03:21:29 UTC
Well, if they're not a farmer they must be doing it for the pvp, which is why the negligible sec hit shouldn't be an issue if they are in anyway serious about recreational ship exploding. Even the FW pvp-er makes enough lp to cover a few tags.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#126 - 2014-01-10 03:50:01 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
The point being is whiners don't want consequences for their actions.

Fair enough.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#127 - 2014-01-10 04:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
i think i lost about 0.9 sec status today just for defending a system for about 1h. All i did was defensive plexing, neutrals entered and i had to engage first... since i happened to be in a kiting ship. (you can't really wait till you are scramed)

if i would do this every day i would be probably outlaw within a week.

+1 for limited engagement timers in plexes.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#128 - 2014-01-10 05:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
The Lobsters wrote:

Seriously, this thread is a FW LP farmer whine that they may have to spend some chump change to take the initiative in a fight.

farmers don't give a **** about anything since the chars are throw away chars anyway. Entering a plex is an aggression since you enter it to fight. The system does not track this aggression and this has to be fixed. Is it only relevant for plexes? I don't know.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#129 - 2014-01-10 05:05:06 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
i think i lost about 0.9 sec status today just for defending a system for about 1h. All i did was defensive plexing, neutrals entered and i had to engage first... since i happened to be in a kiting ship. (you can't really wait till you are scramed)

if i would do this every day i would be probably outlaw within a week.

+1 for limited engagement timers in plexes.


Would the -ve sec affect you that much?

Not trolling just wondering. I relatively recently (a few months ago anyways) paid for tags to get my sec up so I could go back to high sec for some reason yet I am back in low sec trying to get my sec lower again as I can't care less about being in high sec for any extended period of time.

I only have one account and 1 alt that is trained for hauling/trading so high sec is a non issue for me once I go 'outlaw' then I'll warp to as many farmers as I can as they will engage me so much more as my sec allows them to do so without ramifications. Shocked

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#130 - 2014-01-10 06:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
i think i lost about 0.9 sec status today just for defending a system for about 1h. All i did was defensive plexing, neutrals entered and i had to engage first... since i happened to be in a kiting ship. (you can't really wait till you are scramed)

if i would do this every day i would be probably outlaw within a week.

+1 for limited engagement timers in plexes.


Would the -ve sec affect you that much?

Not trolling just wondering. I relatively recently (a few months ago anyways) paid for tags to get my sec up so I could go back to high sec for some reason yet I am back in low sec trying to get my sec lower again as I can't care less about being in high sec for any extended period of time.

I only have one account and 1 alt that is trained for hauling/trading so high sec is a non issue for me once I go 'outlaw' then I'll warp to as many farmers as I can as they will engage me so much more as my sec allows them to do so without ramifications. Shocked


it does somewhat affect me since i have no alts - but thats not the point. Paying the fees to get the sec back is not the issue for me i just don't want to do it since the game mechanics don't make any sense. It doesn't make sense that you won't be able to shop in amarr after a while doing your "job" in the amar militia.

If i would sit at gates, station undocks or scan neutrals down in sites would be completely fine with it, since this is the gameplay of a criminal/pirate/whatever. But being in a plex as open target for everybody and giving neutrals fights should not have the side effect of becoming an outlaw. The neutrals entering the plex should be tracked as criminal, since they are agressing. The game should flag them and it is all cool.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#131 - 2014-01-10 11:33:09 UTC
Had a neutral pilot enter a FW plex I was running the other day.

He cloaked, we convo'd. He wanted to salvage the T2 wrecks of some folks who failed in their attempts to violence my boat so I completed the plex and left him to his wrecks.

Didn't get a chance to ask him how he would feel about being given an aggression timer for coming in - silly me.

Strange but true. Lol



Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#132 - 2014-01-10 11:44:23 UTC
Bienator II wrote:

The neutrals entering the plex should be tracked as criminal, since they are aggressing. The game should flag them and it is all cool.


Remember this is the eyes of concord we are talking about. If warping to a plex is 'aggressing' then so is warping to the belt that a miner is working in. As he is there and you obviously are here to attack him.

Sorry it don't work like that. Concord doesn't 'prevent' crime or actively stop it happening, they 'avenge' crime. There is a big difference and once you understand the difference then a suspect timer for entering a FW plex just doesn't fit with the whole concept of the 'crimewatch' system.

If anyone would be flagging player then it would be the militia not concord (as they look the other way during war) then you'd have to implement another 'crimewatch' for FW aggression which would inter just add to the back end mess of code. You'd also then have to look at implementing the same suspect flagging for a neut who warps to your mission or exploration plex as they are obviously there to attack as well.

Seriously there is no argument than can withstand a simple logic test for a suspect flag to be given a neutral who warps to a FW plex. There is no precedent within eve history/lore to support it. There are only a bunch of players who don't like the penalty of attacking a 'neutral' cos they 'know' they are here to attack them.

My last RL analogy: Why do you think it is so hard to demonstrate 'reasonable cause' if you attack first when you think you about to be mugged/attacked? Simply because you are trying to predict the future and there is always a possibility that you may not have been attacked. That mugger may have just been reaching for a lighter rather than a knife or gun.

Once again. Concord is the holder of 'suspect' flagging NOT the militias. Until you are actively engaged the other ship is 'neutral'.

Accept this or move on. I'm now going to ignore this thread as the people who are still complaining have been put into my HTFU box and are to be ignored :)

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

armsved
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#133 - 2014-01-10 12:02:06 UTC
People need to stop doing real life analogy and stop saying "go back to wow". Both of those things are silly and irrelevant. Lets remove sounds since we are in space? How about asymetrical ship designs flying in circles? You can enjoy a game while wanting improvement and constructive critisicm != whining. Atleast to me, FW is no different than PvP in dota or sc2.

Stop comparing it to a military base some other thing. It's a ridiculous analogy to balance a game around. You need to look at the mechanic for what it is, how it impacts the game and nothing else. You can pull the lore out of your ass afterwards.

Going into a plex as neutral (or as militia) is no different that dueling and you dont lose sec status from dueling. I dont think the neut should lose sec status either. The major difference between a plex, gatecamps and other PvP elements in lowsec is that in a plex both players are there willing to fight each other.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#134 - 2014-01-10 14:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Bienator II wrote:

The neutrals entering the plex should be tracked as criminal, since they are aggressing. The game should flag them and it is all cool.


Remember this is the eyes of concord we are talking about. If warping to a plex is 'aggressing' then so is warping to the belt that a miner is working in. As he is there and you obviously are here to attack him.

Sorry it don't work like that. Concord doesn't 'prevent' crime or actively stop it happening, they 'avenge' crime. There is a big difference and once you understand the difference then a suspect timer for entering a FW plex just doesn't fit with the whole concept of the 'crimewatch' system.

it would be a limited engagement timer, and it would be for entering plexes. The timer is between the neutral entering the plex and everyone already inside. It has the lone purpose to not reduce the sec status of anybody. This is true for both parties because the timer is obviously bi-directional.

defending a plex is not a crime. It doesn't matter if you see it from concord perspective, take a RL analogy or just use common sense and take a step back and look at the sec tracking mechanics as a whole. Nobody enters plexes to say hello, you enter plexes to fight, thats why entering plexes should count as agression, the militia member should not lose sec status for doing his job.

Taoist Dragon wrote:

You'd also then have to look at implementing the same suspect flagging for a neut who warps to your mission or exploration plex as they are obviously there to attack as well.

why not. Its just a topic i have no clue about. If it is changed it should be certainly checked if it makes sense for more "i am on a mission in lowsec" situations. But eve's current pve is so limited that i don't see anything comparable to capture the flag style FW plexes atm.. but i can be wrong since i don't do pve very often.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#135 - 2014-01-10 14:45:15 UTC
One positive alternative that's been mentioned that I think addresses the concerns of both sides on this issue is flagging entering Neuts with "Limited Engagement" when they enter a plex. In addition to allowing less restricted PVP, this solution has the advantage of not making neutral plex bashers vulnerable to attacks on Stargates ect.

The reason FW plexes should be treated differently than belts or other lowsec sites is simple. In those places the game mechanics are intended to have players competing for access to PVE content or other resources. Rats or rocks in belts, data or relic nodes in sites, tasty loot in combat sites... these are things EVE players do and should compete over. If two players end up in the same place, both players face the same choice. Do I stay and fight for my turf? Or do I run away? It makes sense for the player who fires the first shot to take the sec hit in this situation.

In FW, this dynamic is changed when dealing with neuts. The neut is not there to get LP, only a fight. The FW player staying and fighting is already giving the neut player what they want. If you look at it from a game theory perspective, the FW player fighting is actually the exact opposite of what will be helpful getting LP. The more he fights, the more neuts will keep coming to FW plexes to get fights, the less he can farm.

I'm not saying that's how I play, but it is a thing. I joined FW for pvp, I enjoy getting fights... so if I'm not about to get blobed I'll take a fight.

One other thing: you actually do see the competition for PVE rewards *inside* FW militias. LP whores get shot all the time for trying to leech off plexes others have captured without permission. Those mechanics shouldn't be changed.
Karynn Denton
Astrometrica
#136 - 2014-01-10 15:12:19 UTC
Bienator II wrote:

it would be a limited engagement timer, and it would be for entering plexes. The timer is between the neutral entering the plex and everyone already inside. It has the lone purpose to not reduce the sec status of anybody. This is true for both parties because the timer is obviously bi-directional.


When you say "entering plexes", do you mean that the LE flag would be triggered on landing on the beacon, or on activation of the accel gate?

I have doubts about either working, to be honest.

A trigger based on landing on the beacon would be a bit bizarre - nowhere else uses that mechanic and it would be damn fiddly to implement. The flagging system is based on actions done to other things, not on your position in space.

A trigger based on activation of the gate would be worse. Those already inside the plex would see their LE flag go up, mouse over it, find out exactly who's incoming. Conversely, I could activate the gate, pull the handbrake and do likewise to confirm who's in there.

Karynn Denton

Caravan Master

Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#137 - 2014-01-10 15:52:30 UTC
Nothing needs to be changed. If you don't want the pew and possible sec hit, leave when neutrals come on scan. Honestly though I can't imagine why it would matter, the sec hit for blowing up someones ship is fairly small. Just don't pod them...

Forcing others to incur a suspect flag for going to a fw plex isn't going to do anything but lower the amount of pvp occurring in plexes and lower the amount of super special neutral fleets coming through FW space.

nom nom

Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#138 - 2014-01-10 18:29:00 UTC
The Lobsters wrote:
You won't actually take that much of a sec hit by shooting a neutral. Pod them and you get a big hit but otherwise the sec hit is negligible. Also, make sure your overview is setup to show neuts with less that -5 sec status. I'd wager that most of the evil neut plex crashers are well past -5 and can be shot freely. The neuts that aren't could well be less experienced pvp ers n it may be worth taking the fight because of that.

Really, a 0.001% (or whatever low figure it is) sec hit shouldn't discourage you from pvp ing. It's cheap and easy to repair now too. Man up and get stuck in bro.


I think this pretty much sums it up. I wouldn't mind seeing neutral plex crashers draw a suspect flag but I also don't really see the current mechanics as broken either.

Member of #tweetfleet @stalence // Templis CALSF // YouTube Channel

Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#139 - 2014-01-10 18:57:18 UTC
LIMITED ENGAGEMENT.
Totally different then suspect or criminal.
FFS ppl follow the conversation...

Cough cough Princess... cough.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#140 - 2014-01-10 19:08:07 UTC
OP said SUSPECT FLAG, was replying to that

So limited engagement to people in the plex ? And then limited engagements from everyone to everyone as people enter the plex?
Sorry I think that is even sillier. Would be a coding nightmare, on top of a potentially server crippling performance issue.

The bigger issue is, it's not broken, so it doesn't need a fix.

Dread Operative wrote:
LIMITED ENGAGEMENT.
Totally different then suspect or criminal.
FFS ppl follow the conversation...

Cough cough Princess... cough.

nom nom