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Sp CCP, how is that Marauder as a PvP ship concept working out?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#161 - 2014-01-09 16:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Plug in Baby wrote:
Sorry Tippia, how do the statistics show that at all?

If you read my post it seems the given statistics provide no useful information on the matter, other than PVP use is up.
…and thus it was successful. They were in every way useless for PvP and had grown pretty bad for PvE. Now, both are up — PvP spectacularly so.

The main point is that Dinsdale — as always — is inventing an argument with exactly zero basis in reality and then being horribly upset when reality does not match his delusions. In this case, he has outdone himself in that his historical claim is inaccurate; his claim about CCP's purpose is inaccurate; his predictions about the outcome are baseless; his claim about the actual outcome are inaccurate. The goal was simply to make the ships viable in PvP (and if they've become comparable to pirate BS, they certainly have been), and to give them a new coat of paint for PvE (which has apparently worked as well). It sounds like you're judging the outcome based on Dinny's outright fradulant claims about the past, present and planning involved in this change, which means you're not judging it on anything that has any connection to reality.

As it happens, even anecdotal data disproves whatever it is Dindin is hallucinating about this time. The goal they actually set up for the class seem to have been reached just fine.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#162 - 2014-01-09 16:32:01 UTC
Tebizla wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have not seen or heard of many fleet doctrines including Marauders.
So CCP , can you show me some km's of players using Marauders as a PvP weapon?
And no, 12 Catalysts killing a Vargur does not count.

Looks to me that Yitterbum/Fozzie/Rise's vision for the Marauder, is, as predicted, an utter failure.


Then why do I see you undocking from the Lanngisi's Sister station every single night in a Paladin if there is something wrong with the ship? Everyone I know who uses maruaders for missions is highly impressed , to the point of getting rid of their loot pinata pirate BS and using less gank worthy tech2 fit Marauders instead.

Simply put, CCPs changes to marauders have been a resounding PVE success, why are you slamming them for making the ship I see you use every night better at it's job (regardless of CCP stated reasons for the changes)? Or is it just that you need something to complain about every day?


He was not complaining in regards to their PvE success.

Like always with JennaTELLya you can use small words and all but you still cannot make him comprehend or understand.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#163 - 2014-01-09 16:35:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
Sorry Tippia, how do the statistics show that at all?

If you read my post it seems the given statistics provide no useful information on the matter, other than PVP use is up.
…and thus it was successful. They were in every way useless for PvP and had grown pretty bad for PvE. Now, both are up — PvP spectacularly so.

The main point is that Dinsdale — as always — is inventing an argument with exactly zero basis in reality and then being horribly upset when reality does not match his delusions. In this case, he has outdone himself in that his historical claim is inaccurate; his claim about CCP's purpose is inaccurate; his predictions about the outcome are baseless; his claim about the actual outcome are inaccurate. The goal was simply to make the ships viable in PvP (and if they've become comparable to pirate BS, they certainly have been), and to give them a new coat of paint for PvE (which has apparently worked as well). It sounds like you're judging the outcome based on Dinny's outright fradulant claims about the past, present and planning involved in this change, which means you're not judging it on anything that has any connection to reality.

As it happens, even anecdotal data disproves whatever it is Dindin is hallucinating about this time. The goal they actually set up for the class seem to have been reached just fine.

it was a rather entertaining one though

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#164 - 2014-01-09 16:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Tebizla wrote:
He was not complaining in regards to their PvE success.

Like always with JennaTELLya you can use small words and all but you still cannot make him comprehend or understand.

More accurately, Jenn was familiar with Dinsdale's complaint ever since his numerous other threads on the topic, which is why he know that the complaint also was about their PvE success (as Dinsdale's subsequent post showed).

So apparently he understood what was actually being said far better than both you and Tebizia did… like always.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2014-01-09 16:42:43 UTC
Dindin. XD

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#166 - 2014-01-09 16:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Tebizla wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have not seen or heard of many fleet doctrines including Marauders.
So CCP , can you show me some km's of players using Marauders as a PvP weapon?
And no, 12 Catalysts killing a Vargur does not count.

Looks to me that Yitterbum/Fozzie/Rise's vision for the Marauder, is, as predicted, an utter failure.


Then why do I see you undocking from the Lanngisi's Sister station every single night in a Paladin if there is something wrong with the ship? Everyone I know who uses maruaders for missions is highly impressed , to the point of getting rid of their loot pinata pirate BS and using less gank worthy tech2 fit Marauders instead.

Simply put, CCPs changes to marauders have been a resounding PVE success, why are you slamming them for making the ship I see you use every night better at it's job (regardless of CCP stated reasons for the changes)? Or is it just that you need something to complain about every day?


He was not complaining in regards to their PvE success.

Like always with JennaTELLya you can use small words and all but you still cannot make him comprehend or understand.


They say you can't win an internet fight. I say you can, when you beat a guy down so thoroughly that ALL he can do is snipe at you impotently from the sidelines and make silly words with your screen name.

Thus do I proclaim myself Jenn the 1st, Master of All Hawkeyes. You may send your daily isk tribute to my wallet now, Hawkeye. Do it quickly and i will consider not selling all of your children into Amarrian slavery. I said consider.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#167 - 2014-01-09 16:59:06 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have not seen or heard of many fleet doctrines including Marauders.
So CCP , can you show me some km's of players using Marauders as a PvP weapon?
And no, 12 Catalysts killing a Vargur does not count.

Looks to me that Yitterbum/Fozzie/Rise's vision for the Marauder, is, as predicted, an utter failure.


Observation.
Question.
Qualification of question.

Conclusion.


Yep, that looks like a well-founded argument. It's no wonder you keep getting things wrong all the time. Your methods are severely flawed and riddled with opinions instead of facts.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#168 - 2014-01-09 17:03:17 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I simply do not see or read about null sec players, nor low sec players, nor much of anyone, adopting these on a LARGE scale, which to me, indicates a failure in the thrust of the changes.


It didn't become an instant fleet doctrine, therefore its a failure? That's an unreasonable standard.

Quote:

No doubt there are plenty of isolated examples of these ships being engaged in PvP as an aggressor. But given the speed, agility, and cost of the ship, it simply makes no sense to try to convert this into a PvP ship.


That's a personal choice. For the price, the ship offers unique abilities that are very powerful in PvP. The use of these ships in PvP is clearly systemic as shown by Fozzie's numbers. The fact that its not been picked up as a fleet doctrine or seen widespread use by the FW cat herders is irrelevant.

Quote:
And yes, no doubt, I am very bitter about how these changes impacted my gameplay.


How exactly did they affect your gameplay? You spoke of their use in armor incursions. Was it because they changed the web bonus for a tracking bonus?


As for adoption as a fleet doctrine, I would suggest that we are past the point of"instant". I think we are looking at what, 7 weeks now? In Eve time, that is a long time, given how much theory-crafting and jockeying for superiority the null sec cartels do for their wars. The ship is not designed as a roaming ship, given the changes to warp speed across the board. It's designed strength lies in stationary combat, and given that an Archon costs about the same, I don't see null sec adopting this. FW in low sec, when I head into those systems, all I see are faction cruisers and smaller. I can't speak to if they are being used in wormholes, but when I lived there, being stuck in position for 1 minute was pretty harrowing, unless you had a scout on any wormholes in.

As for my bitterness, yes it lies directly with the loss of the web bonus.

From an Incursion perspective, (and as I have discovered, also from a mission perspective), the ship is superior in damage projection, and tank. The loss of practical DPS from the shrinking of the drone bandwidth was essentially countered by the range bonuses. But the web bonus loss was crushing, and has relegated the Paladin into "just another Incursion boat, where there are other better DPS ships). And even with a webber, and a TC on my mission ship, my Large Pulses can't track frigs. I am forced to deploy small drones that are attacked far more often than I think is reasonable, regardless of the EWAR I am trying to distract the NPC's with.

I had a mission last week, where I was down to my last set of drones, and if 3 more drones popped, I would be in a situation where I would have to sacrifice my last 2 drones to save the ship, because I would be trapped there with NPC gnats scramming me, plinking away at me forever, while I could not shoot them.
That has NEVER happened on any other ship I flew, in ANY mission.

I belonged to a spin-off channel of TDF, and the FC was tough as nails, demanding excellent fits and skills. We rocked just about any fleet that faced us, when we flew 9 Pallies/2 Oni's. That channel is now merely a social channel, with no one running Paladin's, or for that matter, Incursions, anymore.
THAT last fact makes me really bitter.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#169 - 2014-01-09 17:12:44 UTC
You being bad and flying a poorly fitted ship does not mean ships like the kronos are bad.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#170 - 2014-01-09 17:16:01 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I belonged to a spin-off channel of TDF, and the FC was tough as nails, demanding excellent fits and skills. We rocked just about any fleet that faced us, when we flew 9 Pallies/2 Oni's. That channel is now merely a social channel, with no one running Paladin's, or for that matter, Incursions, anymore.
THAT last fact makes me really bitter.


Clearly not a creative bunch were ye, cos the paladin I fly is amazing.
so the ship dose not fit your current fleet doctrines, think of some new ones.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#171 - 2014-01-09 17:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


From an Incursion perspective, (and as I have discovered, also from a mission perspective), the ship is superior in damage projection, and tank. The loss of practical DPS from the shrinking of the drone bandwidth was essentially countered by the range bonuses. But the web bonus loss was crushing, and has relegated the Paladin into "just another Incursion boat, where there are other better DPS ships). And even with a webber, and a TC on my mission ship, my Large Pulses can't track frigs. I am forced to deploy small drones that are attacked far more often than I think is reasonable, regardless of the EWAR I am trying to distract the NPC's with.

I had a mission last week, where I was down to my last set of drones, and if 3 more drones popped, I would be in a situation where I would have to sacrifice my last 2 drones to save the ship, because I would be trapped there with NPC gnats scramming me, plinking away at me forever, while I could not shoot them.
That has NEVER happened on any other ship I flew, in ANY mission.


This means you did not fit (or prepare) properly.

Marauders are battleships. All battleships can fight Micro Jump Drives. your ship does not need to be a sniper ship to fit a MJD, because MJDs don't just help snipers, they help all battleship class PVe boats because NPCs disrupt, not scram. So no NPC in EVE can prevent you from MJDing.

So you keep an MJD on your battleship class ship because if you get 'scrammed' by a rat, you just MJD away. Marauders even get a bonus to MJDs so you can MJD out, then back relatively quickly. If you don't want to MJD back, you can dual prop your ship (MJD + MWD). If you think fitting an MJD is 'gimping' your fit, you don't even have to leave it on, you can use a mobile depot to fit and unfit.

Also, did you consider a remote rep on the paladin, most scramming npcs orbit within rep range so you could have repped your light drones.


What I get from your posting is that you simply have trouble adapting yourself to new situations. You aren't using that Paladin correctly and rather than blaming your lack of adaptation, you're mad at CCP. CCP gives us tools, we're the ones who have to figure out how to use them.

Quote:

I belonged to a spin-off channel of TDF, and the FC was tough as nails, demanding excellent fits and skills. We rocked just about any fleet that faced us, when we flew 9 Pallies/2 Oni's. That channel is now merely a social channel, with no one running Paladin's, or for that matter, Incursions, anymore.
THAT last fact makes me really bitter.


Things change. They have to for the game to stay fresh. The bottom line is that the changes CCP made have been mostly embraced byt the rest of the PVe community. You can grow with us and enjoy, or stagnate and be bitter. I'm splitting time between my Vargur and my mach for missions, I think it's great.
Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2014-01-09 18:13:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
Sorry Tippia, how do the statistics show that at all?

If you read my post it seems the given statistics provide no useful information on the matter, other than PVP use is up.
…and thus it was successful. They were in every way useless for PvP and had grown pretty bad for PvE. Now, both are up — PvP spectacularly so.


If your success criteria were just any increase in use, sure. This strikes me a bit like throwing a deck chair off the titanic though, a step in the right direction maybe but hardly a solution.


Tippia wrote:
The goal was simply to make the ships viable in PvP (and if they've become comparable to pirate BS, they certainly have been)


They've become comparable in that they are in the middle of the pirate BS. Being better than a NM or a RS is hardly impressive and the Bhaalgorn doesn't even deal damage! This is why the statistics given are such a load of rubbish, we are comparing ships that just got revamped to ships that have been stagnant and terrible for years and calling that a win.

I'd like to see figures for damage done by the pirate BS and marauders in PVP over Q1 in 2014. I'd guess the kronos and mach will be orders of magnitude above the rest and the marauders just about beat the useless pirate BS. Putting them 'in the middle of the range'.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#173 - 2014-01-09 18:23:32 UTC
So why are some people so desperate to drag marauders back into a state of useless?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#174 - 2014-01-09 18:33:29 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
They've become comparable in that they are in the middle of the pirate BS. Being better than a NM or a RS is hardly impressive and the Bhaalgorn doesn't even deal damage!
…and impressive points of comparisons or not, those ships are all viable for PvP. Just don't confuse “viable” with “popular”. Being better than an MD or RS is hella impressive compared to where they were before, because it means that they now are viable PvP ships just like those battleships — and making them viable was the goal of the change.

Thus: successful.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2014-01-09 18:55:09 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I belonged to a spin-off channel of TDF, and the FC was tough as nails, demanding excellent fits and skills. We rocked just about any fleet that faced us, when we flew 9 Pallies/2 Oni's. That channel is now merely a social channel, with no one running Paladin's, or for that matter, Incursions, anymore.
THAT last fact makes me really bitter.


Clearly not a creative bunch were ye, cos the paladin I fly is amazing.
so the ship dose not fit your current fleet doctrines, think of some new ones.


You should grace us pubbies with your amazing fit, and provide an explanation so that we can learn from you obvious superior skills.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#176 - 2014-01-09 19:13:01 UTC
Shantetha wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I belonged to a spin-off channel of TDF, and the FC was tough as nails, demanding excellent fits and skills. We rocked just about any fleet that faced us, when we flew 9 Pallies/2 Oni's. That channel is now merely a social channel, with no one running Paladin's, or for that matter, Incursions, anymore.
THAT last fact makes me really bitter.


Clearly not a creative bunch were ye, cos the paladin I fly is amazing.
so the ship dose not fit your current fleet doctrines, think of some new ones.


You should grace us pubbies with your amazing fit, and provide an explanation so that we can learn from you obvious superior skills.


over 1000m3 cargo bay+mobile depo, use your imagination.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#177 - 2014-01-09 19:18:49 UTC
Shantetha wrote:


You should grace us pubbies with your amazing fit, and provide an explanation so that we can learn from you obvious superior skills.



You only need a three slot tank so its not exactly a hard task to do level fours.
Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2014-01-09 19:24:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Thus: successful.


Ok, can't argue with that. I personally feel the NM and RS need some attention, but for anyone who believes them to be fine and balanced the marauders are most certainly fine.

I think the main problem is difference in success criteria:

Some expected them to have a real impact on the PVP scene, which the have not

Others just expected them to just be better than they were before, which they certainly are.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#179 - 2014-01-09 19:27:43 UTC
or you could just incorporate 2-3 vindicators to handle webbing and your paladin armor fleet would work even better than before.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Notorious Fellon
#180 - 2014-01-09 19:35:15 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Thus: successful.


Ok, can't argue with that. I personally feel the NM and RS need some attention, but for anyone who believes them to be fine and balanced the marauders are most certainly fine.

I think the main problem is difference in success criteria:

Some expected them to have a real impact on the PVP scene, which the have not

Others just expected them to just be better than they were before, which they certainly are.



If they haven't impacted the PVP scene, is it possible that it could be related to the fact that doctrines tend to change more often in times *between* major escalated wars or that maybe it is because those are billion ISK ships?

I can think of a few more reasons why they haven't impacted PVP on a large scale.

If it was frigs we were talking about, you might see more impact after a few weeks. It needs more time for any billion ISK hull to impact PVP "globally". Also, wait until the dust settles in Null again. Doctrines change when FC's get bored. On the fly Counter tactics can only be used for ships people already happen to have ready to rock nearby the engagement.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.