Intergalactic Summit

One doesn't have to look into the past to see splits within a Tribe.
Ever since Chief Aeboul bought the Thukker closer to the cattle-shed that is the Republic, our Tribe has experienced somewhat of an unofficial split.

There are those who wish to settle in the Republic and give up the wandering life. They turned against their former business partners in Molden Heath and Skarkon in particular, putting up the call for Clone Mercs to consolidate their own gains and curry favour with the Republicans.

Then there are those of us who stay true to the old ways, who respect our time-honoured business partners. We will never settle to graze in a fenced pasture.

For me, these recent developments are encouraging; all this talk of Tribal independence makes further Thukker integration into the Republic highly unlikely. A confederation of sovereign Tribal States, free in their own foreign affairs and business dealings, actually begins to look both tangible and appealing.

I dont know what's more impressive.

The fact that this thread has proceeded relatively civilly, or the fact that everyone just ignored the obvious flamebait early on.

Thank you to all for both.

As I think we earlier concluded, I think we have very different views on how literally we take anything said in the government at face value. I do understand what you're saying, I just don't believe you. I'm sure if I told you that the Empress gained the willing assent of all the other family heirs by way of divine action and have followed her mandates only to a few scattered, individual rebels, you'd know I was reading the official version of events. And you would think I was lying. It doesn't mean I think the Empress is a bad leader or that I think she should be replaced, but even I'm not fool enough to tell you that's actually what happens.

Given that, I spend the most time these days in Matari space doing my job, and therefore I've got a decent handle on what the government is supposed to be, what it actually is, and what it wants to be. Perhaps it's the outsider-in-a-strange-land perspective I have; you'd probably be just as skeptical if you worked and lived in the Amarr Empire with most of your time. However, I wouldn't even begin to believe that the quick succession of Acassa Midular's appointment as a tribal chief, her speech, then the nearly immediate move to bring the tribal heads to greater political power wasn't part of an organic process.

When I first came to the Republic to work, it was initially thought it would be dangerous. However, it isn't as if you can't tell what's going on beyond your line of sight by reading the signs you see. All the tools I was taught to recognize political workings behind the scenes in the Empire translated almost directly to everywhere else I've been.

As I said before, I can hope you're right, but I'm much more apt to believe Shakor gave the tribal autonomy speech in the same vein of propaganda as the Empress gave the Reclamation speech; they didn't actually mean to have them carried out precisely the way they had been in the past. Otherwise, Shakor would have done it immediately; it isn't as if the tribes didn't have the necessary infrastructure to handle government. I can't say many of his actions as Sanmatar were necessarily advisory nor did he show a great propensity for letting the tribes handle their own affairs on anything but a superficial level. I thought that was one of Chief Midular's primary complaints about the centralized government he operated.

Perhaps you've different perspectives and evidence, but all I've ever seen him do is handle centralized affairs. My only conclusion is that the chiefs, at the very least, forced his hand and, at most, forced him to take up a campaign promise he had no intention of keeping.

Government or governments? As an honest question, mind you, I don't have an answer to that one. I've always dealt with whoever was in power where I needed to work, which was rarely anything so large as a tribal or republican government. What happens when tribes have different policies, do you think? It's bound to happen at some point that two tribes come to different conclusions on a solution that can't be reconciled. Are we talking about laws that can change across otherwise invisible boundaries, or do you think the Republic as a whole has the final say in what sort of law is put into practice?

But... it is not even a matter of Tribes splitting ! It is a matter of independent entities existing beyond the well established Seven Tribes.

The Seven Tribes did not exist the first day, and probably formed themselves up like any other entitiy of their magnitude, by a collection of smaller entities absorbing one another in various ways over time, some collapsing and splitting yes, and other not so much.

That way, I find it completely counter intuitive to think that absolutely no smaller independent entity continues to exist in either way, unless some significant events of various order happened at some point.

I do not follow anymore...

I do not think we are understanding each other...

What you are telling me is that the seven tribes are like imperial royal families and hold power over territory and lands the same way an imperial heir does ? Which means that every clan or tribe living on their lands HAS to be affiliated to them, sharing their culture or not ?

I am not trying to believe that, I just think that you assume that absolutely every clan has been part of one of the seven. And again, I have a hard time to believe that absolutely no clan or group remained outside of the seven during all Minmatar history, or that some have lived outside and never were affiliated to any of them, but still being part of the Minmatar society.

I am not necessarily referring to leavers, I am referring to independent groups that never were into one of the seven to begin with. And if those exist, then the new Council is a direct threat to their influence on Pator.

Eystur? Hadaugago? These are hardly 'outer systems.' You can scarcely get closer to the bosom of Pator without falling into it.

It remains to be seen what these changes spell for those of us who must cope with the ebb and flow present in the zones affected by the Republic's proxy war. One can only hope that the reduction of the Council will also reduce the amount of white noise, and allow truly important matters to come to the fore.

I should say that I do know a man who was cast out of his clan, tribe, and the Matari people. According to their legal system, he is completely without nationality as far as their government is concerned.

You have to do something fairly horrible for that to happen to you, though. I've met a lot of Matari criminals and ex-convicts, only one I've ever heard of was cast our that way. Even Matari pirates who prey on the Republic don't have their tribal identity stripped away.

I've met a fair few more that would say they aren't Matari and have no tribe, but that's more of a socio-political statement. It's on all of their legal documentation which tribe they "belong" to, they just like to say that they don't belong to it. Those aren't very common in the majority of the Republic. Everywhere has political dissidents.

As far as the government is concerned, the best way to describe it is "muddled." Generally, the more local the government, the more power they have (as opposed to the Empire, which is often governed from the top down). Your most local city governments are generally affiliated with a clan, but might contain several clans (which might be of different tribes). Generally speaking, you're legally bound by laws that pertain to the tribe of the clan that runs the city. So you might have a Sebiestor clan running a city with Sebiestor laws, but there will almost certainly be representatives of other tribes working there. That means that you need to know the laws governing every single tribe because they will change from city to city.

That was limited before by the power of the central government, but more tribal autonomy might soon mean more sharp divisions. That's not a bad thing, really, as it means that if you need to handle something that's illegal in your area, you might not have to travel far to get to a place where it's legal. You just have to watch out for the odd law that says preaching the Amarrian faith is punishable by prison time.

All in all, it affects their planetside culture more than its spacefaring culture. Given that interstellar space is largely governed directly by centralized law, you don't get that effect if you're just traveling from station to station in space. Just make sure you know your tribal law before you set foot on the ground and know whose ground you're stepping foot onto.

And have a good lawyer. Always, always, ALWAYS have a good lawyer versed in local law.