Player Features and Ideas Discussion

What a shame! I was hoping that the Nestor would give me a reason to fly battleships again but i doubt i'll be flying this ship. If it was a better logistics ship (more range) or had a covert cloak then i would get one but that ain't gonna happen.

To all the high sec care bears and ship spinners out there, enjoy your new toy! o/

Well there is since unlike stratios and astero many ppl complain about its looks. But like CCP Rise said it's a matter of personal taste. I was just asking if enough bad feedback can make them redesign or should we drop the matter entirely.

@ccp, I have one small issue with the SOE battleship im wondering weather or not has been adressed. All the SOE factions ships have followed the theme of being covert, the Soe bs Nestor should imo follow the same them and be treated like a blops in that it can be used to bridge other cov ops ships similar to regular blops battleships. Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Or allow it at the very least to take a covert bridge.

Excellent, you have a lot of the major talking points in the thread all at once, let us look at the counterpoints.

You are right if you are talking about solo exploration. However, BS hulls are fleet ships in everything other than high sec L4 missions. When we say we want an exploration BS, what we mean is a BS capable of moving around safely when escorted by other, smaller ships. In a fleet exploration role, a BS would provide extra dps and tank for running the more difficult combat signatures found in hostile space. BlOps, especially the Sin, are already used for this role with a recon or T3 scouting and lighting cynos for them. However, since the SoE are exploration specialists and considering that they are limited to T1 hulls, a few suggestions for perfecting the Nestor for such a niche role are a cloaked velocity bonus to allow the ship to hide, SMA for increased fleet logistics ability, and a CJD to skip systems entirely.

A cloaked velocity bonus would be the cheapest and most versatle addition in terms of balance, though there are excellent arguments for a CJD as well. Both add survivability to the ship and increase its speed when traveling through multiple systems. In terms of fleet support in combat the RR, dps, and tank may be enough but an SMA would allow a small exploration fleet to operate for days or weeks in Wspace or deep null without ever needing to anchor themselves to a POS or risk docking in a hostile station. Rise has addressed the SMA, even if I disagree, but cloaked velocity and CJD remain questions.

Yes, the Nestor will be both faster than other BSs with a prop mod and move through whs with a much smaller foot print. However, it is surpassed in Wspace pvp by other ships both in RR and dps. Logi cruisers can still provide greater repping power per kg, lock faster, and take less damage than the Nestor. T3s produce greater dps per kg, lock faster, and ambush their tagets from stealth. The only situation a Nestor would come into play would be when you have more isk then sense and want a single pilot to manage RR, sentries, cap, and their own tank, all while striving to stay within range of both the enemy and their own fleet.

As a drone boat, it lacks damage application and targetting range. As an oversized Guardian it lacks RR range, cap transfer, and lock time. Cost is always a factor, even if your most expensive attribute in a fleet is the pilot and fitting them with the best is the most cost effective approach, bringing a specialist ship for either of those roles is still cheaper.

The sand box will always adjust at its own rate but I think it is reasonable to assume that the Nestor will be in the same cost bracket as a carrier for the forseeable future, even if it starts out as cost competitive with a dreadnaught.

Looks like this is done deal... at least lower the LP cost if the stats and bonuses are to be kept...

We don't want the all at the same time. We just compare it to all those roles to make clear that it lacks in all departments and thus no incentive exists to choose this over another ship...

That's funny. These forums are a free source of R&D, so they'd be insane not to sift through them. That being said, the Nestor was more or less set in-stone months ago. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluding themselves about the kind of influence individual players have.

I think the Nestor is such a controversial ship because it comes so close to being awesome in lots of ways, without actually succeeding in any of them. For most players it is a hard ship to find a place for. For a ship that costs so much, it should excel a bit at something. Now I am mostly a pvper/ganker, but I have done a fair amount of sites and missions, and fit ships for the roles, so here is my breakdown of the issues with the ship.

Muddy Focus/Price:
One of the major issues is what you are getting for the price. You have introduced a ship that is good at doing things people have been doing effectively for years without it. Granted, its jack of all trades design makes it unique at the BS class. That being said, one of the core abilities of the Nestor is its remote rep bonuses. It is a great bonus, but one that implies flying with other people, lets face it, if you are flying with other people, a jack of all trades is a bit unnecessary.

It was mentioned that the Nestor's reduced mass was for wormhole exploration. Now, since I don't spend much time in WH space, I could be wrong, but exploring with an expensive faction BS, with no inherent evasive abilities, just seems a bit suicidal.

Thoughts on bonuses-
Racial Bonuses:
I actually like the racial bonuses of the ship, and while I could see some tweaking, they work.

Role Bonuses-
Remote Rep Bonuses:
I like the RR bonuses on the ship, while arguments can be made that it should have a better range bonus, overall the rep bonuses give it a bit of something unique that other battleships don't have. I haven't had a chance to play with one so I can't be sure, but I believe a cap cost bonus could make this feel better.

Energy Turret Bonus:
Really just feels tacked on, extra range is nice, I suspect few people will actually use lasers. With high fitting costs and cap usage, it would be prohibitive to try and use them along with Large Remote Armor Reps.

Scan/ Virus Strength:
Again, feels a bit tacked on. I can see it being used a bit when you are off in your own pocket in Null, but grabbing an actual probe ship doesn't take any real time or effort. Without a covert cloak, the Scan bonus just feels kind of pointless. You could argue that it makes it good for ghost sites, but since i haven't seen one yet, I can't comment on that.

Proposed Adjustments:
Racial Bonuses:
Keep existing, add 10% per level for logistics drones.

Role Bonuses-
Remote Rep:
Keep existing, add cap reduction for remote armor reps (energy transfer bonus would be another viable alternative).

Energy Turret Bonus:
Remove

Scan/Virus Strength:
Remove or reduce Scan bonus, keep Virus Strength for ghost sites.

Goal for changes:
The Nestor appears to be designed for flexibility and support. While the ship allows for many options, the flexibility of design keeps it from being able to excel in any of them. The goal of these changes is to create a ship that can fill a dedicated support role, while still maintaining combat flexibility.

Closing Notes:
My ideas listed here are fairly spur of the moment, and do not represent any emotional commitment from me. I feel that SoE represents exploration and aid. Exploration has been well covered in the Stratios and Astero, aid can be represented now in the Nestor. While a heavier logi focus may not be the most popular choice for an expensive faction BS, it would give the ship a market, beyond just being a shiny ship to collect.

Define "price-stabilized". If you eventually value SoE LP @ 1k ISK per, that puts the lowest price at $1.1-billion ISK, but realistically $1.15-$1.2-billion ISK is going to be bottom of the barrel. Those that have excellent manufacturing skills will be able to produce it from a blueprint for less, but other than fulfilling their own needs - they'll be selling it for market rates. I'm basing this on the Stratios which is hovering around the $335-million mark (300k LP and $20-million ISK). I appreciate that the Nestor follows in the footsteps of the Astero and Stratios in terms of slot assignments, but it's shaping up to be a $1.2-billion armor logistics blender that offers a mixed bag of snakes in terms of fit such that it's not going to necessarily excel at anything.

The tragedy is that the Nestor really had so much potential, and not just from a design standpoint ("subjective" is a way of justifying something as "art" when it's universally hated). The exploration and logistics roles seem to conflict, and one has to wonder what alliance fleet doctrine has been steadily pushing for this behind the scenes. So what could have been done with the Nestor instead?

How about making it the fastest battleship with a base warp speed of 3.0 AU/s, and bump the Astero to 5.5 AU/s and Stratios to 4.0 AU/s. Give them all a fixed role bonus of a 50% reduction to CPU penalty for Hyperspace rigs. With the exploration theme, give them all an inherent warp core strength bonus of +1. Finally, since the Nestor prominently features a rescue shuttle - have the player appear in it instead of a pod. The rescue shuttle would be unique that on destruction of the Nestor it would automatically micro jump 50km away.

Aside from new art, why is it so challenging to come up with some unique features for both the new ships and ones being rebalanced?

What is the intended role of this ship?

The "mission statement" for the SoE ships, as laid out back in October, was:



To that was added:



Following that trend, the Nestor should be an “exploration battleship” (where “exploration” includes, as above, not only probing down and running sites, but also killing other explorers, spying, etc.). And to that end it has many of the same features listed above: exploration role bonuses, drones/lasers, large bay sizes, high agility. What it lacks is the covert cloak.

That much, at least, is probably for the best. True, a covert cloak would probably make the Nestor great (or much better, anyway) for exploration, for the same reason why it makes the Stratios and Astero good: it lets the ship move around in hostile territory much more easily, and with much less chance of interruption, than an uncloaked ship, which in turn helps with several aspects of “exploration” as defined above (including dropping in on anom runners and being super spai). But it would also make the Nestor great for other (IMHO less desirable) purposes as well: think cloaky-RR-sentry-Domi blobs. A Nestor can also project damage better than any other covert-capable ship in game, which speaks to Rise’s concern about the amount of DPS coming through BlOps bridges. Finally, it’s questionable why this ship should get a covops before even the BlOps themselves, if indeed they ever get it.

So if we take the main (not to say only) role of a covert cloak on an explorer as ease of movement, what could the Nestor get instead? There are a few possibilities, some better than others, most or all mentioned before.

Cloaked speed bonus: Like the BlOps, this would let the Nestor align under cloak, then decloak and instantly enter warp. It wouldn’t be able to approach (or land on) a grid while cloaked, which alleviates at least some of the concerns about the power of a cloaky battleship. It would also be visible on d-scan while on the move. In short, it’s a modest but perhaps important buff to its ability to travel in hostile space, which I think was probably a major factor in giving the other SoE ships cloaks in the first place. (This also appeals to the part of me that reads the Nestor’s description and thinks how very, very sad it is that Sanctuary poured all that money into BS cloaking research and failed to even replicate the closest thing to a true cloaky BS that already exists—but maybe that’s just me.)

Jump drive: This would help travel in low- and nullsec iff it could jump to a covert cyno (which might infringe too closely on the BlOps role). If it were restricted to standard cynos, it would be essentially useless as a “hostile territory explorer” bonus in sov null, and that’s saying nothing about the wisdom of jumping a 2 billion ISK battleship to a cyno that anyone can see.

Increased warp speed: Would certainly ease the post-Rubicon pain of battleship warp time, but I’m not sure it’s enough of a bonus in and of itself to make the Nestor attractive as an explorer (almost certainly not if the warp speed is less than a cruiser’s).

Interdiction nullification: The holy grail of ease of movement. Personally, I think it’s a terrible idea. In the first place, the last thing we need (particularly so soon after interceptor balance) is a proliferation of bubble-immune ships, let alone battleships. In the second, it may not actually be that helpful: if you jump into any bubble camp that isn’t completely, 100% inept, they’ll be able to web and scram you while you wait out your battleship-sized align time without a cloak. Also, it’s a terrible idea.

Increased warp stability: Quite possibly still a terrible idea, but not as terrible as bubble immunity (which, by the way, is terrible). Might have some potential. Included here for completeness.

Black Ops bridging: Buy a Sin.

Any of these (even the terrible ones) would, I think, help compensate for the lack of covert ops capability by giving the Nestor something that plays a similar role in increasing its mobility through hostile space—something which the Nestor, as a battleship, needs at least as much as the other SoE ships, if not more. Right now, what it has is a comparatively light mass, but as several WHers have pointed out, that alone isn’t necessarily enough to make the Nestor attractive for exploration in wormholes (and certainly does nothing to help anyone in K-space).