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Killed in 0.5 High sec space with no concord backup
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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-01-08 11:36:33 UTC
Rhonan Irwin wrote:
I want to discuss something I had happen to me today in Eve. I was mining an Icicle belt in Warouh which is 0.5 security space when I had a Venture and another player that was not recorded in my logs attack my two deployed mobile tractor units. This gave them a criminal status as it was an unprovoked attack with no permission of a duel given. I defended my tractor unit with my drones and got the unrecorded player to retreat from bad damage with no shots put onto my Procurer.

I was then attacked by the other two ships that are recorded in the battle log below. All three players were blue criminal status by this stage and was expecting concord backup and tried to shield tank my procurer. By my understanding I needed to wait 25 seconds from when they started attacking my tractor units for the concord. I lasted a full minute with no backup and ejected from my procurer to save my clone which I just got away from being warp scrambled again.

Can someone please help me understand what happened?

2014.01.08 08:48:00

Victim: Rhonan Irwin
Corp: Imperial Academy
Alliance: Unknown
Faction: Unknown
Destroyed: Procurer
System: Warouh
Security: 0.5
Damage Taken: 20570

Involved parties:

Name: Tul Breetai (laid the final blow)
Security: 0.70
Corp: Impromptu Asset Requisition
Alliance: Insurance Fraud.
Faction: None
Ship: Venture
Weapon: Small Focused Pulse Laser II
Damage Done: 10677

Name: Dieter Rams
Security: -0.7
Corp: The Nommo
Alliance: Insurance Fraud.
Faction: None
Ship: Tristan
Weapon: Hobgoblin I
Damage Done: 9893


A few mistakes here. One, blue is not a criminal status. It denotes a limited engagement - both parties have fired at the other.

Concord doesn't come for suspects (yellow), only criminals. Suspects, however, are open season for other capsuleers.

Stop expecting concord to come to the rescue, start making friends and learning to defend yourself.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-01-08 11:43:22 UTC
Rhonan Irwin wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Shooting an MTU does not invoke Concord.

It is a misunderstanding of aggression mechanics.

You got baited and you took the bait.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the purpose of the MTU when you're mining?


The MTU's were deployed for Icicle collection the be collected by myself after I filled them it creates a more profitable way of mining.



I guess what your all saying is I should of returned my drones to drone bay and waited them out?


You will lose the MTU if you don't defend it or recall it. Recall drones first, then collect the MTU, then ignore suspects. Get a combat ship and hunt them down.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-01-08 11:51:20 UTC
Instead of stopping to use the MTU, you'll have more fun stopping the mining and doing something worthwile. Like... playing EVE instead of mining half AFK and playing something else.

Who the hell told you to mine in the first place? Any day 0 noob can make more money doing other things!

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-01-08 11:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Quote:
A few mistakes here. One, blue is not a criminal status. It denotes a limited engagement - both parties have fired at the other.

Concord doesn't come for suspects (yellow), only criminals. Suspects, however, are open season for other capsuleers.

Stop expecting concord to come to the rescue, start making friends and learning to defend yourself.

It's actually a darker shade of turquoise, not blue.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Vipre Morte
Team JK
#45 - 2014-01-08 14:44:14 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
By attacking the group who were attacking the MTUs, you flagged yourself as available for PvP.


Be careful with that statement McCandless. Logging on to Eve flags you for PvP.


Ok Chan(? Are we in Public School, whats with the surnames? just curious), but you know what I meant, it flags you for CONSEXUAL PvP


... did you just say CONSEXUAL when you meant CONSENSUAL?

Is consexual PvP fighting during sex?
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-01-08 16:50:05 UTC
Rhonan Irwin wrote:
Not really that fair without being able to defend yourself and being ganged up on the MTU's are about 8 million each plus cargo.
They should be like secure cargo containers in they are attacked

They are the way they are by design, CONCORD will not come to protect the new mobile deployables, if you want to defend them you have to do it yourself. Trying to defend them in a procurer against 3 other players is a bad idea though.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#47 - 2014-01-08 16:57:14 UTC
Next time bring more alts.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Oraac Ensor
#48 - 2014-01-08 17:11:48 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
You commanded your drones to attack the shooter making yourself a suspect.

Shooting a suspect makes you also a suspect?

If this is true I've misunderstood the new flagging mechanic since it was introduced.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#49 - 2014-01-08 17:22:15 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
You commanded your drones to attack the shooter making yourself a suspect.

Shooting a suspect makes you also a suspect?

If this is true I've misunderstood the new flagging mechanic since it was introduced.


No, it starts a limited engagement between you and the suspect you shot.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#50 - 2014-01-08 17:35:50 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
You commanded your drones to attack the shooter making yourself a suspect.

Shooting a suspect makes you also a suspect?

If this is true I've misunderstood the new flagging mechanic since it was introduced.


No, it starts a limited engagement between you and the suspect you shot.


Correct. Sorry, I misspoke.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Bobby Frutt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-01-08 18:01:50 UTC
Umm, it's not really fair. That's not the right word to use.

The mechanic is functioning as it was meant to. The process has been described. In that regard it was "fair" as they didn't cheat, but the mechanic itself is largely unfair.

MTU's are given special priveledges for no logical reason other than CCP wanting an increase in PVP. You could remove CONCORD, thus increasing PVP too... that doesn't mean you should do it.

From EVE's wiki:
"Cargo containers and wrecks are considered valid property just like drones and ships. If you damage either, you are initiating aggression on its owner. If you are not in their corporation, or otherwise allowed to legally engage, then you should be ready for a security hit and Concord intervention."

Read that carefully, guys. CONCORD intervenes as they have attacked your property. That is the explanation given by CCP.
Why then, is an MTU not considered your property?

The answer is: It is. The MTU aggression mechanics are simply developed inconsistently with the other related mechanics.

I'm sure at a point CCP actually knew what they were doing... the game's quite wonderful so they must have. Can we hire those people back please?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#52 - 2014-01-08 18:18:45 UTC
Yet another tale of easy highsec ganks provided by.....

someone not knowing better.

C'mon, let's have a comprehensive new pilot training course or popup warnings like "this device can be shot by anybody and shooting back makes you a target as well" and there will be rivers of tears from these highsec gankbears claiming "amusement park" and "dumbing down". How is it dumbing down when you rely on your target being dumb?



Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#53 - 2014-01-08 18:19:56 UTC
MTU: The greatest buff to highsec "warfare" ever.


Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#54 - 2014-01-08 18:42:09 UTC
Vipre Morte wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
By attacking the group who were attacking the MTUs, you flagged yourself as available for PvP.


Be careful with that statement McCandless. Logging on to Eve flags you for PvP.


Ok Chan(? Are we in Public School, whats with the surnames? just curious), but you know what I meant, it flags you for CONSEXUAL PvP


... did you just say CONSEXUAL when you meant CONSENSUAL?

Is consexual PvP fighting during sex?


To be fair, PvP is a lot like sex, you spend a while getting ready and preparing for it then someone gets ****** and before you know if the explosions have happened and everyone is left to clean up after themselves
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#55 - 2014-01-08 18:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Yet another tale of easy highsec ganks provided by.....

someone not knowing better.

C'mon, let's have a comprehensive new pilot training course or popup warnings like "this device can be shot by anybody and shooting back makes you a target as well" and there will be rivers of tears from these highsec gankbears claiming "amusement park" and "dumbing down". How is it dumbing down when you rely on your target being dumb?
I don't think many of the people you think will be crying rivers of tears will actually be doing so if this was the case. Do you know why? Because people will ignore it, just as they ignore the tutorials and the wealth of information about Eve that is widely available all over the internet. People can't be bothered to learn about the game they're coming to, what makes you think they'll bother with a new pilot course or popups that warn them of things (see the pre safety catch popup warnings and lowsec stargate warnings and the amount of wailing caused by clicking "don't show me this again" ). CCP can't patch stupidity, wilful ignorance or just plain laziness out of the game.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-01-08 19:46:56 UTC
Bobby Frutt wrote:
Umm, it's not really fair. That's not the right word to use.

The mechanic is functioning as it was meant to. The process has been described. In that regard it was "fair" as they didn't cheat, but the mechanic itself is largely unfair.

MTU's are given special priveledges for no logical reason other than CCP wanting an increase in PVP. You could remove CONCORD, thus increasing PVP too... that doesn't mean you should do it.

From EVE's wiki:
"Cargo containers and wrecks are considered valid property just like drones and ships. If you damage either, you are initiating aggression on its owner. If you are not in their corporation, or otherwise allowed to legally engage, then you should be ready for a security hit and Concord intervention."

Read that carefully, guys. CONCORD intervenes as they have attacked your property. That is the explanation given by CCP.
Why then, is an MTU not considered your property?

The answer is: It is. The MTU aggression mechanics are simply developed inconsistently with the other related mechanics.

I'm sure at a point CCP actually knew what they were doing... the game's quite wonderful so they must have. Can we hire those people back please?

The MTU is not just some static container, it's basicly your own CCP aproved bot for looting. Making using it completely risk free would not be in the spirit of EVE.

If you want CONCORD protection for it, I'd say it would have to recieve a significant nerf. That nerf could come in a (huge) decrease in hit points so it would be easier to gank, huge nerf to cargo space, range, making it more expensive or what not. A 50k hitpoint or something afk looter that costs a few mil should not be treated the same way as a mere cargo container.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-01-08 21:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Just a little FYI: If you have the cargo room you can scoop your MTU at any time as long as you are in range. If there is anything inside it, the contents will be automatically jettisoned in a can.

So as long as you are in range and paying attention and not watching Sponge Bob in the other room, saving your MTU should be simple.

Also, everyone take a moment to mouse over the green safety setting and post a screen shot here what it says...
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#58 - 2014-01-08 22:15:04 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Yet another tale of easy highsec ganks provided by.....

someone not knowing better.

C'mon, let's have a comprehensive new pilot training course or popup warnings like "this device can be shot by anybody and shooting back makes you a target as well" and there will be rivers of tears from these highsec gankbears claiming "amusement park" and "dumbing down". How is it dumbing down when you rely on your target being dumb?
I don't think many of the people you think will be crying rivers of tears will actually be doing so if this was the case. Do you know why? Because people will ignore it, just as they ignore the tutorials and the wealth of information about Eve that is widely available all over the internet. People can't be bothered to learn about the game they're coming to, what makes you think they'll bother with a new pilot course or popups that warn them of things (see the pre safety catch popup warnings and lowsec stargate warnings and the amount of wailing caused by clicking "don't show me this again" ). CCP can't patch stupidity, wilful ignorance or just plain laziness out of the game.



You are probably correct. The mentality that MMOs attract then do be the "you can't tell me what to do" mindset.

I've said before: "Alphas are gonna alpha, then get alpha'ed".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#59 - 2014-01-08 22:17:52 UTC
Aggression rules. Learn them.

EVE, working as intended.
Ginger Barbarella
#60 - 2014-01-08 22:52:01 UTC
Rhonan Irwin wrote:
Not really that fair without being able to defend yourself and being ganged up on the MTU's are about 8 million each plus cargo.
They should be like secure cargo containers in they are attacked


Defend yourself?!?!?! YOU aggressed THEM!!! Lol

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac