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Drug Booster Balancing issues

First post First post
Author
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#181 - 2011-11-23 17:34:41 UTC
Thank you very much!

You do not have to apologise for speculation, that is all it is 'speculation' people should know the risks.

/prays my last 70 exile sell quickly Big smile
Don Pellegrino
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2011-11-23 17:52:18 UTC
Thanks!
Gramacy
Lazy.
#183 - 2011-11-23 18:10:37 UTC
Thanks for listening, Ytterbium.

I'm also glad this thread has many good posts giving sound arguments for and against the booster changes, instead of the threadnaugts that happen often.
Simc0m
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2011-11-23 18:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Simc0m
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • removal of side-effects does not address the real bottleneck here, which, as you pointed out, is tied with the production. For boosters to be more used, we need to look into their convoluted reaction and manufacturing process.


  • I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong here. There are 3 things that prevent boosters from being widely used (in order of importance).

    1) The convoluted nature of the drawbacks scares people off.

    Solution: Simplify drawbacks, remove drawbacks that affect the same attribute, add an addiction mechanic

    2) They are illegal, which (for the most part) prevents their use/transport through high sec.

    Solution: buff synth (like you had planned), and/or make standard legal in high sec. Make smuggling a valid profession.

    3) Boosters are expensive (personally I think booster prices are about what they should be, but if they were dirt cheap more people would use them). If you want them to be cheaper make gas harvesting more efficient. Gas is the #1 cost of producing boosters, lower it's price and booster prices fall in lock step.

    Solution: Make gas smaller (1m3 per unit), make gas harvesting lasers more efficient, make gas compressible

    The truth is: THERE IS NO BOTTLENECK, there is just NO DEMAND because of 1,2,3 above

    sure the manufacturing process is tedious (why is this a bad thing?), but it is clearly NOT the reason people don't use boosters.
    Emperor Salazar
    Remote Soviet Industries
    Insidious Empire
    #185 - 2011-11-23 18:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Emperor Salazar
    Simc0m wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • removal of side-effects does not address the real bottleneck here, which, as you pointed out, is tied with the production. For boosters to be more used, we need to look into their convoluted reaction and manufacturing process.


  • I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong here. There are 3 things that prevent boosters from being widely used (in order of importance).

    1) The convoluted nature of the drawbacks scares people off.

    Solution: Simplify drawbacks, remove drawbacks that affect the same attribute, add an addiction mechanic



    Agree, 100%.

    Quote:
    2) They are illegal, which (for the most part) prevents their use/transport through high sec.

    Solution: buff synth (like you had planned), and/or make standard legal in high sec. Make smuggling a valid profession.


    Agree, 100%. Add a smuggling ship for each race.

    Quote:


    3) Boosters are expensive (personally I think booster prices are about what they should be, but if they were dirt cheap more people would use them). If you want them to be cheaper make gas harvesting more efficient. Gas is the #1 cost of producing boosters, lower it's price and booster prices fall in lock step.

    Solution: Make gas smaller (1m3 per unit), make gas harvesting lasers more efficient, make gas compressible



    Somewhat agree. I honestly think that if there was simply more demand and boosters were not a niche market that more people would be inclined to harvest gas. I don't think gas needs to be smaller or compressible, but creating a dedicated gas harvester would definitely be a nice addition.

    Quote:
    The truth is: THERE IS NO BOTTLENECK, there is just NO DEMAND because of 1,2,3 above

    sure the manufacturing process is tedious (why is this a bad thing?), but it is clearly NOT the reason people don't use boosters.


    For synth and standard I agree, there is no bottleneck. For strong, there needs to be more bpcs, maybe for improved.

    Lastly, please do not dumb down the reaction/production process of boosters. It is just fine as is. Somewhat complicated but easy enough to do once you've figured it out. And do not get rid of needing gases from multiple regions for improved/strong. There is a lot of potential for cartels among the 0.0 alliances to be formed to meet the demand that will hopefully be developed with a proper booster fix.
    Zendoren
    Aktaeon Industries
    #186 - 2011-11-23 18:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
    First, If you have not read my suggestion for the booster fix, Located here and here.

    First supply, As most people here have pointed out, gass clouds and the process of harvesting is broken if you take into account the volumes to which CCP Ytterbium would like to see them used at.

    I am in agreement with most in here that gass needs to have its volume reduced. This would open up the prospect and incentive for individuals to actively seek out ladar sites. Now, if this change needs to balance out, I would suggest increasing the cycle times for harvesters and increasing the cycle time bonus to the gas harvesting skill book. From a rational point of view, gas by its nature does not have a lot of volume and I would think that harvesting gas in space would be a time consuming project by its nature. This would increase the profit to volume ratio for gas which will make it profitable from a logistical stand point.

    With that addressed, the issue then becomes the ladar sites and bpc’s found within. Personally I do not think that BPC’s should be directly droped, ever! Some will argue with me about this, but I’m under the idea that one should research or reverse engineer to produce bpc’s. I would like to see this idea applied to the boosters as well. This will have an added bonus of giving a buff to the science sub-career and research POS owners while giving CCP another point where they can adjust the profitability of boosters. Nothing too complicated, I would just like to see that reverse engineering skill used somewhere else other than just T3 development.

    Ladar sites, in general are tied to the same issue as all other anomalies that are currently being discussed over on CCP Greyscale’s thread. My suggestion for the Anomalies rebalance is located here. In a nut shell, my suggestion is that players should be able to infuince the True sec of a system through player’s action and from there; Anomalies spawn rates (ladar sites included) can be dictated by how much work a group of players put into a system. This system can be balanced on CCP’s end by adjusting the spawn values for each anomaly and the spawn rate depending on the level of true sec . Further, this system could be augmented with the current Ihub system for 0.0 residents thus making the system extendable.

    This would address the risk reward problem low-sec currently has while maintaining 0.0 as the dominate place to make money, while giving a tool to CCP to adjust the risk/reward curve through iteration and analysis.

    As for the production process. I like the idea of having a fairly complicated and risky production process for boosters. POS manufacturing, as it is now, Sets an investment bar for individual/organization so that only dedicated and capable people/organization are forced to make a decision to invest in a POS to stick it in space 23/7 to make money from. As I see it, I think booster production should be low-sec moon mining w/ out the moons.

    As for demand, I think this will be addressed once the new custom/contraband system is implemented. I hinted at this in the above suggestion for booster changes for high sec.

    ❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

    CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

    CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?

    Tanya Powers
    Doomheim
    #187 - 2011-11-23 19:12:03 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Does not make them more available : removal of side-effects does not address the real bottleneck here, which, as you pointed out, is tied with the production. For boosters to be more used, we need to look into their convoluted reaction and manufacturing process. Treating their possible illegality status is another topic altogether, and one that needs to be done carefully, as we would like to use it for future smuggling and contraband features.


  • Indeed, I always wanted to spec my industrial alt in to drugs manufacturing but has it stands right now not only is very difficult to obtain base elements but also ways to produce those reactions thus making prices of those go thrum the roof and thus making them a choice for fortuned players.

    About legality maybe, I really mean maybe carefully, take off illegality status from sync to standard with decreased materials/reactions and thus making them cheaper = more appealing
    Right now a +3% booster is about 3 to 12M (depending location)...who's silly enough to use those?
    +25% (or about) over 25M....
    c4 t
    Cosmic Psychedelics
    #188 - 2011-11-23 19:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: c4 t
    Good decision CCP. However, as many are stating, please don't change the manufacturing process. It's perfectly fine the way it is.




    Tanya Powers wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Does not make them more available : removal of side-effects does not address the real bottleneck here, which, as you pointed out, is tied with the production. For boosters to be more used, we need to look into their convoluted reaction and manufacturing process. Treating their possible illegality status is another topic altogether, and one that needs to be done carefully, as we would like to use it for future smuggling and contraband features.


  • Indeed, I always wanted to spec my industrial alt in to drugs manufacturing but has it stands right now not only is very difficult to obtain base elements but also ways to produce those reactions thus making prices of those go thrum the roof and thus making them a choice for fortuned players.

    About legality maybe, I really mean maybe carefully, take off illegality status from sync to standard with decreased materials/reactions and thus making them cheaper = more appealing
    Right now a +3% booster is about 3 to 12M (depending location)...who's silly enough to use those?
    +25% (or about) over 25M....


    It is not very difficult to obtain base elements or produce the pure booster material. No need to change the actual manufacturing process, just the availability of BPC's and gas.
    Poetic Stanziel
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #189 - 2011-11-23 19:52:37 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    We do know that is a total reversal from the previous post, but we honestly recognize previous approach was far from ideal and should not have been planned for Crucible release, at least not without proper feedback first. Simply put, we do not want to release something that has not been given enough time and that is almost unanimously considered as degrading game play.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with reversing a previous decision if it in fact is looking like a bad idea. Kudos for having this sort of forethought and discussion and listening to the community.
    Di Mulle
    #190 - 2011-11-23 20:03:06 UTC
    Zendoren wrote:
    FFrom a rational point of view, gas by its nature does not have a lot of volume and I would think that harvesting gas in space would be a time consuming project by its nature.


    Just nitpicking here Twisted In an opposite, gas have most volume, just by its' nature.


    Also, applauds for CCP by taking this step back. Proposed changes were not good.
    <<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
    
    Hans Jagerblitzen
    Ice Fire Warriors
    #191 - 2011-11-23 20:58:12 UTC
    Simc0m wrote:

    I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong here.


    It's funny to me how the more discussion that goes on, the less weight statements like this begin to hold. Booster manufacturers are saying the supply of sites is bottlenecked, people on the other hand are saying its illegality that's the issue, smugglers are saying its easy as crap to get stuff into highsec unscathed, still others blame the side effects, to which even more people counter that side effects are completely manageable.

    Lets just cut the "I KNOW EVERYTHING U R WRONG" attitudes all around and admit that in the end, the booster business is still a complete mystery for most players. Whether you live in nullsec, highsec, lowsec, whether you're buying boosters, selling boosters, making boosters, I don't know that there's any comprehensive data that definitively and accurately describes the entire picture. Only CCP has the server side data to back up some of the claims being made here.

    To me, this is perfect though, and what separates booster manufacturing from other industries, where its all laid out on the table, and there's high enough volume that profiting is a matter of some simple math and basic efficiency. The fun for me as a drug manufacturer has always been that I've had to roll up my sleeves and get out there and explore to get to the truth about what can be made where and how easy, because most claims I've heard on the forums about one aspect of the trade or another have turned out to be rumor and speculation by those not actually making all types of boosters of all strengths from the ground up, gas to final product.


    On a completely different note, condolences to all the market manipulators that tried to game the market anticipating this "gold rush". Roll Have fun with your gas and blueprint stockpiles XD


    CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

    Zendoren
    Aktaeon Industries
    #192 - 2011-11-23 21:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
    Di Mulle wrote:
    Zendoren wrote:
    FFrom a rational point of view, gas by its nature does not have a lot of volume and I would think that harvesting gas in space would be a time consuming project by its nature.


    Just nitpicking here Twisted In an opposite, gas have most volume, just by its' nature.


    Also, applauds for CCP by taking this step back. Proposed changes were not good.


    haha! yep your right! I was thinking of more along the line of compressed gas P

    Other than that.. anything else you see wrong? besides my spelling and grammarOops

    ❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

    CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

    CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?

    Somal Thunder
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #193 - 2011-11-23 22:04:00 UTC
    Suddenly nobody will fly Gallente, making minmatar EVEN MORE SUPREME.
    Looking forward to ganking triple rep hypes/myrms/dual rep brutixes in a hurricane scratch that, rupture.
    Emperor Salazar
    Remote Soviet Industries
    Insidious Empire
    #194 - 2011-11-23 22:05:08 UTC
    Somal Thunder wrote:
    Suddenly nobody will fly Gallente, making minmatar EVEN MORE SUPREME.
    Looking forward to ganking triple rep hypes/myrms/dual rep brutixes in a hurricane scratch that, rupture.


    wat
    IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
    Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
    #195 - 2011-11-23 22:24:32 UTC
    Somal Thunder wrote:
    Suddenly nobody will fly Gallente, making minmatar EVEN MORE SUPREME.
    Looking forward to ganking triple rep hypes/myrms/dual rep brutixes in a hurricane scratch that, rupture.


    Quoted for posting the next time RVB pretend to have decent PVPers
    Madner Kami
    Durendal Ascending
    #196 - 2011-11-23 22:42:49 UTC
    Di Mulle wrote:
    Zendoren wrote:
    FFrom a rational point of view, gas by its nature does not have a lot of volume and I would think that harvesting gas in space would be a time consuming project by its nature.


    Just nitpicking here Twisted In an opposite, gas have most volume, just by its' nature.


    In turn gases can be easily compressed to occupy a smaller volume then they do in their "natural state".
    Tanya Powers
    Doomheim
    #197 - 2011-11-23 23:11:16 UTC
    Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
    On a completely different note, condolences to all the market manipulators that tried to game the market anticipating this "gold rush". Roll Have fun with your gas and blueprint stockpiles XD


    Actually the lack of empathy from those is compensated by calculated speculation, but there are some tears to collect for sure.
    (rl tears from rl traders are even better Lol )
    Tanya Powers
    Doomheim
    #198 - 2011-11-23 23:12:49 UTC
    Emperor Salazar wrote:
    Somal Thunder wrote:
    Suddenly nobody will fly Gallente, making minmatar EVEN MORE SUPREME.
    Looking forward to ganking triple rep hypes/myrms/dual rep brutixes in a hurricane scratch that, rupture.


    wat



    Nothing to see, we're at drugs section here he just took too much Lol
    Hans Jagerblitzen
    Ice Fire Warriors
    #199 - 2011-11-23 23:28:16 UTC
    I agree with gas compression. We should be able to carry Liquid Cytoserocin around in our cargoholds.

    Anyone else tried to compress rocks before?? Surely if that's possible in make-believe space land, we should be able to carry refrigerated booster gas in liquid form. Common sense physics here.

    Maybe have a dedicated ship that carries compressed liquid gas, like a mini-orca. Maybe give it no turret slots so the whole process doesnt become ridiculously simple, so you would still have to have a proper gas-harvester (cruiser, BC, whatever you use) but at least have the option to haul it easier in bulk once you've gotten it safely to a station.

    Also, blowing up a compressed liquid gas hauler should 'splode magnificently. Like a smartbomb, only deadlier. Give that a blast radius - nothing too nasty, but enough to spice things up a little. We don't want hordes of suicide gas tanker recreating Pearl Harbor, but a few here and there for lulz could be fun. :) Could be easy to mitigate by adjusting the 'splosion strength vs. the cost of the gas. As long as its a damned expensive way to inflict on your opponents it won't be overused.

    CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

    Zendoren
    Aktaeon Industries
    #200 - 2011-11-23 23:37:52 UTC
    Tanya Powers wrote:
    Emperor Salazar wrote:
    Somal Thunder wrote:
    Suddenly nobody will fly Gallente, making minmatar EVEN MORE SUPREME.
    Looking forward to ganking triple rep hypes/myrms/dual rep brutixes in a hurricane scratch that, rupture.


    wat



    Nothing to see, we're at drugs section here he just took too much Lol


    I take it that no one like my idea..... I got no likes Cry

    ❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

    CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

    CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?