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3rd Party Support - CSM Summit Topic

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Themanfromdalmontee
EVE RADIO ARMY
#21 - 2014-01-07 22:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Themanfromdalmontee
I don't have any problem with ingame rewards - They are only worth what people will pay so if people don't want them they are worth nothing. Obviously a somerblink titan might be a bit of an over kill but a couple of scorpions for people who worked hard to deliver a serve to thousands of players then why not?

Sadly there will need to be transparency on this because you unfortunately have people who wear tin foil hats in this game and are so paranoid they wear a gun when they go to sleep in real life.

There i also the issue with rewards out of game, and that actually means support like advertisement and referal schemes for GTC's. I can understand the issue where people have earned lots of RL money on this basis.

My argument is that if someone is successful and makes money off a service (Via agreed routes of course, such as advertising and GTC referals) then they should be congratulated. However favouritism on that (EG advertising - community spotlights) is probably not a positive thing because of the tin foil hat people freaking out.

I'll compare this to Sim items made by the community then sold on fansites ( Sorry Subscriptions sold to download them). Those fansites will make a load of money from the people who buy (subscribe for) those items. Is that bad?

Not in my opinion.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#22 - 2014-01-07 22:21:15 UTC
Third party in-game rewards should be:

a) Always declared to the entire community
b) Never of limited edition ships, except for the Alliance Tournament where the precedent is long-set and widely accepted, or for similar events. Ships only available via prizes are fine, as long as no implication is made that the ones handed out are all that will ever exist.
c) Never items that provide a lasting impact in any form of PVP (tech 2 BPOs provide a lasting impact in market PVP, 50 single-run BPCs for unique ships do not unless those unique ships are extremely hard to destroy)
d) Not have a massive inherent value (e.g. something that reprocesses into 1.3 trillion units of Tritanium)

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#23 - 2014-01-07 22:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
You have an opportunity here to selectively overcome one of the most annoying things about running an in-game service, which is that it is incredibly difficult to market or advertise. ("Click on my bio! Pretty please?") Given that, I would not underestimate the value--especially, the in-game value--of a public shout-out. The only better marketing is word of mouth, and you have to work like a dog for a long time to generate that on any significant scale.

There's no need to generate in-game items when you can generate in-game buzz about, and appreciation for, the services you're spotlighting. If you want to, you have a corp medal system. You could expand that just slightly and use it the way Blizzard uses achievements, so that anyone looking up a spotlit corp can see the seal of CCP approval.

And, it goes without saying, you should triple-check to make sure that the service you want to spotlight isn't doing you-know-what to generate cold, hard you-know-what.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

The Legendary Soldier
Instant Reaction Holdings
#24 - 2014-01-07 23:19:24 UTC
What is needed:

Total transparency.
No in game advantage to be gained.
Apply your own terms and conditions to ALL players equally.

I believe rewards should be for contributing to the community - not to businesses - and absolutely not to gambling sites.

I would never call for a ban or sacking, however, the handling of this matter has been appalling.

Ignoring a very long thread for such a long time left people with the impression that CCP was trying to sweep the matter under the carpet.
I suggest this was extremely bad for customer relations and should not be allowed to happen again.

Need to place a high-sec POS? Premade corps for sale, or your corps standings boosted. Trading since January 2012. Many corps sold/boosted - see my thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63128&find=unread

Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#25 - 2014-01-08 00:25:33 UTC
Transparancy is key, above all. Perhaps a running list of who you have supported and how, both past, present and future should be maintained and updated monthly.

Also required is a firm definition or set of rules as to what is/isn't RMT. If giving isk out to get a cut of GTC sales is not allowed, what about paying writers isk to support your ad revenue, or paying isk for out of game services, such as killboard and TS hosting, ect. Basically, when is it OK to give isk to a player when it is clearly not an in-game transaction?

As for giving out rewards, well...

No in game advantage or effect should be provided. This takes many forms:

No trade-able items should be given out, including ships, plex, ect. Such things have an effect on the economy and have in game value. Even the most seemingly worthless item, is worth something to someone, and the sandbox should not be tainted by such things.

If non trade-able items are given out in game, they should not give the player receiving it an advantage over other players. So a in game T-Shirt that says "Community Superstar" is fine, but a ship or implant, etc. would not be. Basically, fluff items only.

Support of in game organizations or individuals, unless perhaps 100% charitable in nature, should not happen. In a game full of backstabbing and betrayal, a CCP seal of approval or spotlight is a huge boon. By supporting one, and not all such organizations, you are essentially providing them with an unfair in game advantage over other similar entities and future entities who must compete with them. Doubly so for any in game and out of game businesses.

Giving out RL rewards, such as shirts, free trips to fanfest (extreme but whatever) and the like is fine.

Free game time, such as the current fansite reward is fine as well, as long as it is NOT in the form of PLEX or GTC. True those players could in turn use the money they would have paid for subs to buy plex, but that is not a given.

Supporting events by allowing players to buy tickets with PLEX, like with fanfest and EVE Vegas this year is also ok I think, although I can't speak to the general legality of it. I'm a bit up and down on this, as it does affect the in game plex market, but its not as bad as say adding artificial plex into the system by giving out plex rewards to people.

Shout outs to out of game content generators is also ok, like podcasts and the like, unless they are a business and are non profit. This obviously does not include service providers who charge players in game currency (like many popular killboards, hosters).
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#26 - 2014-01-08 01:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain StringfellowHawk
Community Spotlights are Great
A top 10-20 List of third party is an awesome idea.
Transparency
All Prizes Being awarded from CCP should be Vetted By the CSM panel.
ANY in-game items is a Bad Idea.

Any site that OFFERS or HINTS at anything In GAME that can be directly/indirectly tied to the purchase of GTC's Should be deemed automatically as RMT, The offending runner of the site Banned - AND IT'S MEMBERS TIED TO IT - hit with Suspensions for RMT assisting. Third Party sites selling GTC's with nothing tied to them, to help Server costs is Fine.

I am all for a community site rewards that are Out Of Game ... Say a Free Month ( NOT A PLEX) But directly a Free Month of EVE Tacked to there account using a customer service rep. Say if they do a Top 10 list the Number 1 (just the main indivual.. not his/her friends or helpers) Gets a few months free for being at the top.

EC: (lets used the most known ) Chribba's Service maintains The #1 spot all year... top community site etc.. most voted by the players - he receives Said award. Automatically Tapped To that account.

Any Third party site or operator if there worth there weight will easily get donations from Players in the game in one way or the other. Either from donations for developing a Great APP, or Profit ( no matter how small you try to BS it is). The Only Ingame prizes that should be award to these Operators - IN GAME - Should be from players directly Giving Thanks.

- Never forget SOMERgate As it was clear CCP said to suspend GTC Bonus's and all other third parties complied immediately while Somer Pushed theres to 1 Billion to cash out on the rush for Extra site credit until the deadline.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#27 - 2014-01-08 01:45:16 UTC
Why not a physical pin? It's not a bid deal, if CCP want to be really cool, they can make a custom design relevant to who they're giving to, but ultimately it is a sentimental token with no real value beyond what it represents.

Same goes for in-game- just award a special medal and make it clear it was awarded by CCP. There's plenty of live-events or other in-game criteria that could also quality. Same idea- something that is token, has little intrinsic value beyond what it represents AND is non-transferable.
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-01-08 02:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Deka Ekato
CCP, finally, Thank You.

First, I do not agree with Somer not being punished, but anyway, moving forward.


- Ideas and Thoughts.

- Guideslines of how / what rewards are given to 3rd party entities, must be created.
- Transparency is a must.
- No favouritism or any ingame advantage / benefit should be given.

- Positive contributers / creators can / should be rewarded / recongnised, with out of game stuff, and / or, if in game, only non transferable / tradable "vanity" (?) items, ( eg. Medals or something to that effect ).

- For profit, gambling / auction / lottery, sites should get NO support at all.

- Rare ingame collectables should only be obtainable through Alliance Tournaments.
- Lesser ingame collectables obtainable via, whatever CCP / Eve Community think / agree with, is fair.

- CCP endorsed auctions should be within game only and to be operated by CCP themselves.



- Issues of CCP's integrity.

- CCP's interpretation of their own TOS / EULA, especially regarding RMT, must be addresed and fixed,
( Terms and Conditions should apply equally to ALL ).

- Improving Your Customer Service and Public Relations


- Issues of CCP favouring Somer

- Is CCP spawning stuff for Somer ?
- Is CCP spawning characters for Somer ?


- Fears

- Is CCP giving up on Eve, as a game ?
- Does CCP want Eve to become a "Casino" ?


Thanks, Deka.
Lady Areola Fappington
#29 - 2014-01-08 04:12:38 UTC
I don't mind rewards, so long as they're kept to the "collectible item" level of use. Nobody will complain if you give out a "CCP appreciation trophy" to people you feel have earned said items. Those items, in fact, will mean more to the person getting them, than, for example, an IWS.

The IWS is good for killmail comedy or sale for ISK, a collector style item from CCP that says "Thanks for your miner gankin' content generating", I'd keep forever.


Make the items you give out have sentimental value, not ISK value, is what I'm going for.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Carnaby Wakefield
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-01-08 12:42:37 UTC
Total transparency is needed.

It really has to be embarrasing at this point in time that typing "MMO Dev Misconduct" into Google gives Eve-online as the top 12 results.

As regards the RMT stuff and Somer, silence is just going to lead to more theories about more miss-conduct, its blatently obivious to alot of players that t20 and somer ect are probably only the tip of a vast Iceberg of miss-conduct over the years.

At this point CCP has little to no integrity left, maybe its time for a change of policy.

The Legendary Soldier
Instant Reaction Holdings
#31 - 2014-01-08 21:22:12 UTC

It occurs to me... for no real reason :)

That a bottle of single malt whisky would make quite a nice reward :p

Need to place a high-sec POS? Premade corps for sale, or your corps standings boosted. Trading since January 2012. Many corps sold/boosted - see my thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63128&find=unread

Hienz Doofenshmirtz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-01-09 07:22:52 UTC
I know CCP Logibro, CCP CmdrWang, CCP Falcon, CCP Eterne (even if he did spell my name wrong in the last dust community spotlight) and the rest of the Dust514 teams are helping as much as they can, but there is currently no proper way to register as a Dust site. The Team has been incredibly great in supporting us, but having parity with the eve folks, would be nice.

www.dust514stats.com do you know?

Dave Stark
#33 - 2014-01-09 18:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
i love how few replies this thread is getting now it's in a forum nobody reads.
or it might be that after 100 pages of feedback people have given up hope.
Kirren D'marr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-01-09 21:51:11 UTC
I firmly believe that in order to understand what actions should be acceptable going forward, you have to take a good look at what went wrong in the past. By analyzing what caused the problems before, you can better shape your actions in the future.

To that extent, I have to point out that where things first went so horribly wrong with the SOMER Blink fiasco is that one or more CCP devs forgot their role as impartial referees. That role must be sacrosanct. If you intend to continue to operate an open and competitive sandbox game, and you hope to maintain any level of trust and respect from your customers, than above all, the role of referee must be inviolate. This means that you cannot afford any action which may give even the appearance of violating that impartiality. To do so is to destroy faith in the fairness of the playing field. CCP, you should know more than anyone the difficulty of restoring lost trust. It has been many years since the t20 scandal, and you still live under its shadow. And that incident was the result of the actions of one rogue individual within CCP; how much greater would the damage be if the impropriety appears to be an officially sanctioned act?

So in light of events which called such impartiality into question, I propose the following points for consideration in shaping future policies regarding third parties:

Any gift to a third party cannot give them an in game advantage over other players. Whether an advantage is economic, military, or otherwise, it is a clear violation of impartiality.

Any gift to a third party must be given openly, with clear public announcement. The purpose of such gifts is to recognize outstanding actions; by definition, rewards given in secret are NOT recognition! Instead, such hidden rewards give the appearance of impropriety, as anything legitimate would not need to be hidden. As we have seen, it can also serve to give the recipients an unfair market advantage, as the value of rare items is heavily influenced by their rarity, and limited insider knowledge of that rarity allows price manipulation.

Any gift to a third party must come with clear and quantifiable justification. When other players come to you after the fact and ask "why was this group chosen instead of the other group, which to us appears to have done much more?", you can't respond with vague generalities; you have to be able to give a measured reason which can be clearly compared and understood. To do otherwise gives the appearance of favoritism, and it will be perceived that sucha group was chosen merely because of their relationship with individuals within CCP. This requirement necessitates the creation of clear criteria as to what qualifies an individual or group to receive such rewards. Any such criteria needs to be as objective as possible, and should never rely solely or even mostly on opinion. This criteria would also have to be established and announced before any rewards are given! In the end, if you can't justify a gift in a way that others can clearly see why it is being given, and if others in a similar situation cannot apply for and receive the same treatment, then don't give it!

No in-game entity, whether a single player or organization, should ever be used as a distribution method for prizes intended to be available to all the playerbase! This creates a situation rife with opportunities for abuse and corruption. The third party has power over who may participate in such prize selection, can require use of their services for eligibility or outright prohibit the participation of groups or individuals at their whim (something which CCP was clearly against in the instance of the RP chat channels, yet seemed to have no problem with in the EVE Vegas giveaway), or can even rig the entire giveaway to ensure that the prizes are received by their own members. Furthermore, using an in-game entity for such purposes gives them an unfair advantage over other in game entities who are in direct competition. Due to the desire to participate in such rare giveaways, the prize distributors have the power to drive traffic away from their competitors and to their own website/service. This can have an in-game impact by reducing their competitor's in-game business, as well as a real-world impact by reducing the website ad revenue that many third party fansites use to fund server costs. Plus the fact that whether intended or not, being chosen by CCP for such a task becomes a clear endorsement and declaration of trustworthiness, which again violates the referee's impartiality. Really, this one is wrong on so many levels, I can't imagine how it was considered appropriate to begin with, and it should never be considered an acceptable option again.

Most importantly, all rules must be applied to all players equally! This means that regardless of whatever relationship a player or group of players have had with CCP in the past, regardless of whatever awards or rewards they have been given, regardless of whatever endeavors they have supported or joined CCP in promoting, if they are found to have broken any rules according to the TOS, EULA, or any other agreement, then they must receive the same punishment that any other player would receive!

The sad part in all of this is that nothing I have stated here should be a major revelation. Beyond the fact that most if not all of it should be common business sense, this and much other advice has been given ad nauseum on these very forums, in the appropriate threads. If you've dismissed it before, and have to ask for it to be given again, what hope do we have that you'll actually listen to it this time? We've told you before what sort of rewards we find acceptable, and the only response was silence. If the results are similar this time around, I wouldn't expect much more patience on the part of your customers.

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that.     _ - Kina Ayami_

Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2014-01-09 23:45:50 UTC
Kirren D'marr wrote:
Any gift to a third party cannot give them an in game advantage over other players. Whether an advantage is economic, military, or otherwise, it is a clear violation of impartiality.


Rightly said. When I learned of the awards that SOMER had received, while I was not concerned about what prize they had won, It was the way that it had been dealt with by the CCP Staff, and with the utter lack of anything (initially) at them saying it was more "in SOMER's interests to let the player base know rather than us." that concerned me greatly.

3rd Party organisation should receive the assistance they need from CCP in relation to API/CREST management and development - but rewards should be limited to things that are of token value - the IWS, while seen as this, is not: They can sell for quite a sum on the contract markets, and as such should be withdrawn for such.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-01-10 03:05:40 UTC
Kirren D'marr wrote:


Any gift to a third party cannot give them an in game advantage over other players. Whether an advantage is economic, military, or otherwise, it is a clear violation of impartiality.

Most importantly, all rules must be applied to all players equally! This means that regardless of whatever relationship a player or group of players have had with CCP in the past, regardless of whatever awards or rewards they have been given, regardless of whatever endeavors they have supported or joined CCP in promoting, if they are found to have broken any rules according to the TOS, EULA, or any other agreement, then they must receive the same punishment that any other player would receive!

"And much more meaningful stuff"



Well put Kirren. CCP, please take note of Kirren's post, ( in a good, positive way ).
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#37 - 2014-01-12 12:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Most of the responses in this thread are addressing the issue of rewards, but the original post is asking for opinions on support. Granted, the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive of each other, but the focus - in my humble opinion - should be on what CCP can do to better support community services, organizations, fansites, and tools.

The most important thing CCP could do for us community-service oriented types is provide us with better tools and platform(s) to promote our creations. It is difficult to get the word out in Eve about a new gizmo, event, organization, or website even when you are already well-connected; even more challenging for those who aren't part of large alliances or haven't already spent several years networking throughout New Eden.

Create better tools for the community to make it easier for the community to serve the community, and the community will provide all the rewards needed :) Perhaps offer higher-level access to these tools and/or platforms as a reward....

Some random ideas...

  • Add the ability for organizations to add events to the in-game Calendar that are viewable by everyone, not just your own personal corp or alliance. While opening the Calendar to everyone would probably lead to excessive trolling and scams (which isn't necessarily a bad thing)... granting the right to post global events to the in-game Calendar would be a nice perk to offer both well-established organizations and also new organizations after some sort of brief vetting process, perhaps.
  • Add in-game button on the button-bar to relevant forum sections or wiki pages that list fansites, third-party tools, in-game communities, educational services, etc.
  • Add more robust features to the in-game mailing list that are, perhaps, available as a reward to approved services. (BTW, can you add to the tutorial "How to join a mailing list?"
  • Add a search function that allows people to search for mailing lists of interest. As it is right now, people have to learn that a certain mailing list exists through forum posts, bio links, word-of-mouth, etc. Adding the ability to "Search for a mailing list on (whatever topic)" would be very useful, I think.
  • ADD THE ABILITY TO LINK A MAILING LIST!! Pretty please!! I can (through a confabulated method) link a chat room, but there's no way to link a mailing list!
  • More fleet management love, please!
  • More love on the API, get CREST up and running, etc.

Ultimately, what I believe is the best "reward" CCP can provide to the community is better tools for us to do what we love, whether it is running educational classes/seminars, drunken public fleets, developing gadgets and gizmos, blogging or anything else.

Just my two bytes!

GG

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

Free weekly public roams & monthly NewBro new player roams!

Visit Redemption Road or join mailing list REDEMPTION ROAMS for information

Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-01-13 02:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Deka Ekato
CCP, IMHO, I beleive that this thread deserves to be in a more prominant sub-forum, or maybe anothere prominant thread needs to be created that directs users to this thread. QuestionQuestionQuestion Maybe, Please QuestionQuestionQuestion
Kirren D'marr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-01-15 17:56:45 UTC
Deka Ekato wrote:
CCP, IMHO, I beleive that this thread deserves to be in a more prominant sub-forum, or maybe anothere prominant thread needs to be created that directs users to this thread. QuestionQuestionQuestion Maybe, Please QuestionQuestionQuestion


Agreed; if you want something to go unnoticed by the general EVE populace, stick it in the CSM forum section.

It also doesn't help that all the corresponding threads in GD were locked so that they, along with the links redirecting people to this thread, quickly slipped off the front page. Now there is nothing pointing anyone to this discussion.

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that.     _ - Kina Ayami_

Nanatoa
#40 - 2014-03-24 00:51:19 UTC
I think this thread achieved what CCP wanted it to achieve. Barely two pages of responses, just one CSM member chiming in, no more replies from CCP and finally a quiet unsticky with no word on if/when/how this was discussed with the CSM. Topic buried successfully.

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011

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