Player Features and Ideas Discussion

If you only knew how dismal the HML numbers actually were…

• HML vs. AB Battleship … 92%
• HML vs. AB Battlecruiser … 70%; w/3 rigors … 100%
• HML vs. AB Cruiser … 26% (not a typo); w/3 rigors … 39%; w/3 rigors +1 TP … 48%

If you completely strip your tank, run $50-million worth of rigs and a single target painter - you too can have a 143 DPS Caracal. What about a second target painter you say? That gets you another 6%... Imagine having 2 tracking enhancers or tracking computers, full turret rigs and still only being able to apply 54% damage…

Outside of L4 missions I just can't see any use for HMLs unless you're part of a gang that webs targets.

You are not always required to shoot at AB fast minmatar ships you know...

And exactly like Kagura said, AB is designed to reduce incoming damage. Lower signature than normal is also here to reduce incoming damage. Why are you still expecting full damage on small signature AB Target after all these pages is beyond my understanding.

The best counter to AB is a web. Why don't you try the numbers on a webed AB cruiser ? And a standard cruiser for once, like the Thorax so praised in this thread could be a good start, unlike the AB Stabber which is the absolute worse case you can run into and still completely ignore the fact that this cruiser, while fast, have no tank and poor dps.

I have to agree with Bouth here. I've never been in a short range fight and not been webbed. I've never deliberately used long range weapons systems at short range and I've never used a long range weapons system without someone else at short range doing the tackling. If I am in a small gang that wants to keep range, it would make sense that we took along a couple of recons or electronic attack ships to act as long range tackle and web. In which case, the dps missile (or gun) boats could fit a great deal of damage-enhancing modules.

I think the idea that you're going to build an effective solo ship with long range weapons of any kind is a non starter.

That is exactly my point. A. You can't brawl with a HAM setup vs another brawler cruiser. No EHP... The HML setup can survive a lot, but the application of damage is abysmal unless you have TPs and rigs to go with it. I have 18+mil SP in missiles... and find them to be pretty useless. Example: Fighting 4-5 cruisers vs my ScyFy(HML) They have a plated AB Exequror that I spend the better part of 10 minutes trying to kill... I thought at the time that it might be slaved and 1600mm because it was dying so slow...but it was 800mm T2. I eventaully killed it and all of its support but they brought in Geddons and I had to leave grid.
This should not be the case...
Arthur Aihaken- you are exactly right and I appreciate that you're trying to educate others as to the real shame.

RLML Analysis
As we've been left to our own devices, I thought it was long overdue for a specific RLML analysis. The test platform is a Tengu with V skills, 3 ballistic controllers (2 faction) and no implants. The first bar (dark blue) represents the average DPS with a T2 launcher/faction ammunition when you factor in reloads. Light blue is T2 with Precision ammunition, light grey T2 with Faction ammunition, dark grey T2 with Fury ammunition and finally red Faction with Faction ammunition.

RLML Comparison

Observations:
• Precision ammunition actually fares surprisingly well, delivering 45% damage to MWD Interceptors and peaking at 100% damage against AB Destroyers. The only drawback with Precision is that it's half the range of Faction or T1 ammunition, and even with hydraulic rigs you'll be hard-pressed to extend the speed such that MWD Interceptors can't outrun them. Unless you're in a Caracal or Cerebus there's almost no benefit with Precision outside of PvE, and you'd be further ahead with HAMLs.
• Fury ammunition really only starts to pay off against medium-size targets, starting with 79% damage against MWD Heavy Assault Cruisers and peaking at 100% damage against MWD Cruisers. Again, there's a range trade-off compared to Faction or T1 ammunition - but it's only 25% less. Again, with PvE Faction ammunition is probably worth the trade-off in DPS for the extended range.
• Faction launchers with Faction ammunition outperform T2 launchers with Precision ammunition against Destroyers and Cruisers, especially when you consider the additional range with Faction ammunition. Aside from the cost, there's a huge SP benefit in not having to also train Light Missile Specialization I through V (most will probably only go to IV).

PvE Considerations:
• With the 40-second reload time, RLMLs aren't well-suited as a primary weapon. However, they do shine as a secondary "frigate-clearing" weapon in a pair (leaving 3-4 main launchers for primary use). If you assign HAMLs or HMLs as your primary weapon, you have between 40-66 (or 45-75 with Faction) rounds of ammunition to continue applying DPS while the RLMLs reload as well.
• RLMLs only require about 2/3's the power, so in many instances this frees up just enough grid to upgrade your tank. On a Tengu this allows 4x HAMLs and 2x RLMLs using the Augmented Capacitor subsystem, so you can squeeze in more DPS.
• RLMLs can be pre-equipped with FoF ammunition such that anything that enters stasis web range will be immediately eliminated with one click (FoF will engage and continue to attack the closet targets), which leaves you more time to focus on the primary targets. I call it "pest control".
• Lately we're seeing a lot of mission harassers. These fall into two categories: stupid (those who can't figure out that you're not utilizing drones set to auto-aggres) and devious (those who will go suspect by shooting a tractor module, lure you into a limited engagement, warp out and return with something like a command ship or strategic cruiser). In almost every instance I've seen tanked destroyers utilized, probably with at least one warp core. However, what they're not expecting is to get scrammed. Their only recourse is to then try and run the limited engagement out against your weaker primary weapons, but if you have RLMLs they're effectively screwed - because you can apply full damage in a very short timeframe. One Thrasher just escaped with 5% hull remaining… Since we're going to see more and more of this, it's something to start thinking about when working on PvE mission fits.

Other Considerations:
• I've mentioned this previously, but with RLMLs there's almost no benefit with utilizing more than two ballistic controllers. I've used three in this example, but the third is only 57% effective - so you're really only gaining 5.7% damage (since RLMLs are already so fast, another 5.7% ROF isn't going to make a huge difference). A fourth is entirely a waste. This effectively frees up 2 low slots, allowing for a damage control and nanofiber. Nanofibers are the best choice, as inertias blow your signature up and overdrives reduce your cargo capacity.
• RLMLs have an amazingly high damage application, so you don't really need to utilize rigors or target painters. I mean, you can - but they're already 61.16% effective against MWD Frigates and 80.08% effective against AB Destroyers. Their whole advantage is range, so I'd forego a target painter that can be dampened in favor of a rigor that can't. When fitting rigs, the order is T2 rigor, T1 rigor and then T2 flare. There is only a marginal difference between a T2 flare and T1 rigor, so forego the additional expense on the T2 flare. Also, the way missile mechanics work is that once you beat the target's signature radius rigors start influencing target velocity.

Addendum: In reviewing my data, I forgot to adjust the DRF for Precision and Fury ammunition - so I went back in and revised the chart (Precision is improved by -0.2 but Fury takes a big +0.4 hit). DRF stands for Damage Reduction Factor, and basically the larger the munition the bigger the value is. This didn't really change the analysis, since Precision basically got better and Fury got worse in their respective applications.

Doctrines are like fashions. i've been in this game for 3.5 years and seen them come and go. Once upon a time, dominixes were nowhere to be seen in fleet warfare. Then one day the dominix got a range and tracking bonus for sentry drones.

Now, this bonus could have been achieved easily previously using omnis and curator drones. But that's not the point. The new hull bonus was the catalyst that spawn an *idea*. Suddenly, sentry drones were useful and the slow cat domi fleet was born...

...several years after it could have been done. During those several years, HML drake and tengu fleets were dominant. Again, not because the ships were necessarily dominant in themselves, but because the time was right for the meme to find footing. The range, damage profile and cost fitted with the aspirations of FCs.

At the moment, the most effective fleet doctrine ought to be ravens with cruise. 150km range with >1000dps, massive alpha and very quick time to target. Couple that with an MJD and you have a wall of death you cannot counter or catch (MJD does not break locks). FCs have not made the mental leap yet, but they will, eventually.

Prior to the missile, drake and hurricane nerfs these systems were too strong and were crowding out any choice. CCPs logs demonstrated this conclusively. The fact that there is now an argument about which ship to take to a fight is a great leap forward. It has opened up the game to experimentation with new strategies and tactics.

This of course means that those people who used to dominate in drakes and hurricanes (all of us) have to re-think. Good! I like thinking and I like the freedom to be creative in my fitting choices.

Eve is a better game because of it.

CCP will continue to monitor the logs. If they see an actual, empirical imbalance in the numbers they will tweak missiles, guns or whatever as they have already done with HMLs and rapid lights. Rapid lights were broken, being too powerful. They were damaging the game so they have been replaced by essentially a different experiment. It's for us to work out whether we find that useful and vote with our fits and our kill mails.

This will generate data, which CCP will use to guide future modifications.

This situation really is light years ahead of the previous debacle, where the game designers simply ignored the numbers and allowed the game to degenerate to the point where the player base was so angry they used their own time and money to pro-actively demonstrate by assaulting Jita and Amarr. Really, people were un-subbing in their thousands and the CEO was forced by the shareholders to do a public about-turn and replace his lead game designer.

The Eve you have today because of that is the best it's ever been.

Never forget.

Yeh the ammo swap is a problem. Difficult to solve.

If you do some missioning in Osmon or any SoE level 4 hub these days you'll find lots of flashies to blap (but watch out for the alt in a logi)

:-)

Rise, we've been patiently waiting for an update since late November. Since you've indicated you've now returned from holidays and that the Nestor is basically proceeding as is, this should finally give you some time to address many of the concerns raised here. If you're not going to give us the time of day then please just finally indicate the RLML and RHML are set in stone and lock this thread. Thanks.

All I know is it feels like we got boned…

This peak damage idea followed by cool down is exactly why thermodynamics was introduced...so use THAT!

You could make modules that simply produce less heat and thus can be more readily used to do burst damage without gimping their tactical use by giving it huge reload times. This improved mechanic would also apply to lasers well, which don't use ammo in the same sense as other weapon systems do.

The modules as designed here is close to worthless as it gimps fits as you can't change fits in the mid of a fight if the situation calls for it. This is not adaptive tactics, this is over specializing fits at a heavy price and even then the numbers look laughable.

Tuning reload and RoF statistics on modules only complicates game design and makes balancing and using the modules a total nightmare.

Use Heat mechanics instead...call it T3 or Anciliary and your golden and it can be applied to a lot of modules quite easily!